I hate to start a thread with so little info but on today's "The Herd w/Colin Cowherd" Colin and ESPN Gamenight's Doug Gottlieb were going at it over who's better Dream or Shaq. Cowherd gave his vote to Olajuwon and pointed out that he not only faced tougher competition and several HoFers, he dominated them (Shaq incl.). Shaq has never been the top defensive center (much less overall player) nor leading rebounder/shotblocker and his titles are as much a product of who he played with/against. Gottlieb said Shaq has been more dominant over a longer period/several teams, has more titles (nearing another) and actually argued that Hakeem competition wasn't that great . If any "Insiders" want to fill in the blank with the show recap--it would be appreciated...they made a list of the top 5 centers (which sparked the debate) but I missed it. Thanx!
How does playing for more than one team make you greater? The fact that Olajuwan spent his career with the Rockets (The Raptor years don't count!) shows a lot more for his character. He actually played on teams that had completely different make-ups, probably just as much so as Shaq has.
My stance is that Hakeem gets the edge because he had more of a complete game. Plus, I just have a personal bias towards athletes that get stuff done through creativity and skill (Hakeem) as opposed to size and brute force (Shaq), eventhough the net result is basically the same. However, I think it's a myth to say Hakeem dominated Shaq head-to-head. I think they were usually pretty close in terms of production when they played each other.
Not to mention Hakeem was one of the greatest, if not THE greatest, down the stretch big man performers of All time. Even under the zone defense rules when it is so hard for a big man to create for himself with time running down, we saw Hakeem do it effortlessly time and time again. And how graceful he was. Shaq was always a more efficient scorer throughout the first 40 minutes of the game. His PPFGA was higher than a prime Hakeem as well as his TSP. But, he bricked FT's time and time again and relied on Kobe down the stretch. Didn't have Hakeem's versatility either and the triangle offense really helped his style of bullying into the post. Defensively Hakeem has the edge, don't give me that BS about Shaq having a greater intimidation factor because of his bulk. That is absolute crap. It's always hard to find a 'prime' for Hakeem when comparing him with other players. Naturally you want to use the early 90's and championship years but defensively he was UNREAL in the 80's. Just not hyped at all.
I would take the Dream over Shaq any day (obviously) but I think this is actually a good debate. Both were 2 completely different Centers and both dominated the NBA in different ways. The Dream: 1. Best finesse big man EVER!! 2. The Dream Shake was unstoppable. 3. 2 Championships, a MVP, DPOY 4. On defense, I don't see anyone that can break his record. Career: 22ppg 11rpg 3blp 2steals Shaq: 1. Most dominant big man ever. 2. Shaq downlow in the paint was as unstoppable as it gets. 3. 3 Championships, a MVP 4. FTs and any scoring outisde of 3 feet was almost obsolete Career: 26ppg 12 rpg 2.5bpg * Like Cowherd said, Hakeem played against much better competition than Shaq could have ever dreamed of. Hakeem when against guys like DRob, Kareem, Ewing, Parrish, etc...There was a point in Shaq's career where there were zero big guys to compete with.
Hakeem was better because he was a great defender and he wasn't a liability at the end of a close game. Aside from Magic and Kobe, Shaq has to be one of the luckiest basketball players ever. Aside from his rookie season, he has ALWAYS had a squad and a dominant guard to compliment him. His body of work is impressive, btu he has always had help. Seriously, how do you go from Penny to Kobe to Wade...on 3 different teams at that.
i think the thing that bothers me is people really overlook how much shaq's horrible FT% HURTS his offensive game. he is a dominating player on the offensive end, so was hakeem, but shaq's poor FT shooting really hurts his efficiency. he isn't the rebounder dream was or the defender dream was. so even if you state that people still come back with the cliche "yeah but shaq is clearly the most dominant player ever to play...blah blah blah". its an argument that will never be settled and dream will never get the respect he deserves because the hacks on the radio will still come back with that tired argument.
does anyone remember that he almost did it twice? i'd take hakeem due to him actually facing real centers throughout his entire career.
He did do it twice, the league took it away at first, but on further review they found he did make the Quad, but for SOME reason couldnt change it. So he had two quads. Unless my memory has failed me.
People still take for granted what a COMPLETE player Dream was. Not only was he the focus of double and triple teams as the lone "superstar" of his team for the majority of his career (not to mention the numerous muggings and maulings Gene Peterson used to tell us about) but defensively he was a monster! He would shut the paint down for his man, anybody who tried to drive the lane, any mascot that tried to dunk--and don't try to get off a buzzer beater from the 3 pt line--Hakeem might run out and swat that too! (Ask Starks or MJ). The guy could get steals from point guards and if they stole it from him? No problem, he'd just outrun them down the floor and swat their shot. Take a guy like Deke--regarded as the King of the Block Shot (and finger wag)--he won't even retire with as many blocks as Olajuwon and oh yeah, Dream also found the time to rack up more than 2x the points and about 4x the steals. Nice to hear him get SOME recognition but Hakeem will always be U N D E R A P P R E C I A T E D
Dream was so quick for his size too. To take shaq out of the defense other teams set high pick and rolls with their center because shaq is too slow/lazy to show. Hakeem on the other hand, was quick enough to show and then get back the basket for the block or rebound.
i would've said magic, bird, and russell (with a not to duncan) since kobe is going to be on some bad teams, but the point remains. has shaq ever not played on a team that had a bunch of talent? ever? i mean maybe his rookie year (i think they went 41-41), but after that it's just been loaded team after loaded team. the lakers practically had to trade away some talent just to make room for kobe's emergence, the heat apparently weren't loaded enough last year so they had to add a bunch of other talented guys (even if they came with baggage, they had talent). i mean damn, you can't get more blessed than shaq has been. like you said, penny to kobe to wade is unreal. hakeem got to play with a nice team at the start, and he took down the showtime lakers in their prime (won the title the year before, won the next two), and took the best 80s celtics team to 6 games. then the backcourt did cocaine and sampson fell apart and we drafted guys like buck johnson, derrick chievous, and some other scrub. then we finally assemble a nice supporting cast and get a coach who knows how to use him and he rips off 2 titles. to me shaq and hakeem are pretty damn even. shaq had been the more unstoppable offensive force his whole career (hakeem from 93-95 basically tied shaq on offense), hakeem was the better defensive force throughout his career. i would say hakeem's defensive edge is bigger than shaq's offensive edge but i also think, defense wins championships cliches aside, an unstoppable offensive tends to be even more important for titles, so i think things even back out, maybe even go shaq's way. but then you add in hakeem being a much better down the stretch guy (he could never just turn it over to a kobe type player, he had to carry the team) and a guy who actually tried hard throughout his career (fake injury aside) and it goes back hakeem's way. who wins out in the end, i don't know. i'm certain hakeem in his absolute prime with kobe in his prime could have had the 3 titles shaq in his absolute prime with kobe in his prime got. could he have added another one playing with all of shaq's talented teammates. could he have gotten the one shaq is about to get this year with a guy like wade being the best guy on the team? probably. shaq is putting up 19.7 and 9.5 with 1.5 blocks in this year's playoffs (almost right in line with his regular season numbers), his 14th season and at age 33. in hakeem's 14th season at age 35, in our series against utah he put he put up 20.4/10.8/3.2, though he did shoot a low 39%. the previous year at age 34, he put up 23/11/2.5 with 2 stls and 59% shooting. so this myth that shaq has done it for longer doesn't really pan out. right now shaq's career rebounding number is ahead of hakeem, but if you cut off hakeem's career at the same 14 seasons, they are almost identical (hakeem might even have the edge after shaq's 9.2 this last season). hakeem's ppg is still about 3 or 4 short of shaq's, but he is almost 1 whole block and 1 whole steal per game better. shaq wins on fg%. they both have titles and have been the best player in the game before. i'm not sure who to take. i'm not even sure who i take at their absolute best, shaq's mvp year playoffs or hakeem in the 1995 playoffs. in the end, i think they're remarkably close. very different styles, but how you get there doesn't matter, they both dominated. shaq will alway get more credit b/c he had a big personality, has a lot of quotes, and played in a huge media market. hakeem didn't have any of those. at least someone picked hakeem in the debate.
It just always pissed me off that Shaq's signature move is basically an offensive foul. At lease half of Shaq's points have been scored when he shouldered the defender in the chest and scored through him. Of course he's a dominant center when they had to change the rules of the game to allow him to actually play. For as dominant and great a player he's been, I've never liked his game. Very few pure basketball skills. But the NBA needed a superstar, so they let him get away with it from day 1. I understand that there is going to be physical play under the basket, Hakeem had his fair share of high elbows and hooks, but a ton of Shaq's play is just flagrantly against the rules.
Both put up big offensive numbers but: Hakeem was not limited to five feet and in. Hakeem did not have to be taken out at the end of games (especially important in close games - making the gap huge between the two). Hakeem had a go to move. No contest defensively. Hakeem won a championship with a team with only one former all-star (who was an all star ONE year). Shaq hasn't won jack without other all-nba performers. Both are great players - but if I was picking one to have their full career - it would be Dream hands down.
Could Shaq run down someone like Kevin Johnson from behind on the break and block his layup? No way. We all know the flaws in Shaq's game. No jumper. Terrible FT shooter. Poor conditioning. One of the 10 best players ever, but could've made himself into one of the 3 best ever with enough dedication. But what were the flaws in Dream's game? That he played in a relatively small market? That he never had a teammate as good as Bryant or Wade? I think it's obvious that if Dream and Clyde had played together more in their prime, as Shaq and Kobe did, that Dream would have a lot more than 2 rings. I can't believe we're even having this discussion.
