You are in your right to consider wins in determining the all-nba teams. What I am having an issue with is your attempt to portray Shaq as a better defender and rebounder than Yao this season. The stats do not support this argument. You been shown a number of stats by a number of posters disproving you however you respond with statements like "Yao doesn't get to line as much like Shaq", "Yao didn't guard Shaq which probably helped his EFG% allowed stat", and the one time you post any stats of your own you conveniently only chose centers Big Z and Miller. Have you considered that maybe Shaq goes to line more because teams are trying to exploit one of his weaknesses? This is not an advantage in itself if you can't make the freethrows. Ever think that maybe teams are reluctant to foul Yao because it is not advantageous? Have you considered that Shaq himself didn't play against Yao either so maybe you should penalize Shaq also in his EFG% allowed stat? That the two samples (too small of a sample in my opinion) you posted don't explain how on earth Yao despite doing worse with BigZ and Miller than Shaq ended up with better defensive numbers over the entire season than Shaq? You know Shaq played the other centers not named Big Z and Miller too. Like I said you can choose to consider Shaq's team record but don't come to this board and say that Shaq was a better rebounder and defender this season because you will be questioned. Because the results (isn't that what season ending awards are all about?) show that Yao averaged more rebounds, and made the opposing center shoot a lower percentage than Shaq.
Allright you want the statistics go check out their statistics and not their per game averages. They have about the same Reb Rate, Ast Ratio, Scoring efficiency, and if you want proof of Shaqs double team youll have to join this site its the best site for all the stats you want and it makes 82games.com look like a joke. Its a free trial period during the playoffs so be sure to take advantage. http://www.mysynergysports.com/website/members/Login.aspx Excuse my foul language but it wasnt directed to anyone but the list so dont take offense.
Shaq had the higher reb rate if even slightly it was higher so if you cant say Shaq is the better rebounder you definately cant say Yao is the better rebounder. And considering that Shaq is the better offensive rebounder its obvious he still works harder on the boards especially the more important rebounds. Well I only listed the centers that both Yao and Shaq played that are known as offensive centers and I allready apoligized for my futile attempt at showin their defensive prowess. Thats why I was goin to make a list of every centers offensive output that both Yao and Shaq had to gaurd but I thought about it but i thought to myself what a waiste of time that would be. I said Shaq is a better defender because of his overall team defense and not just his shotblockin stats and the fact that he doesnt get lit up like Yao has. And opponants shooting % isnt too impressive considering the lack of offensive centers left in the nba.
PS how do you edit posts so I dont have to keep double posting and I can erase things that come out wrong?
Thanks for the stat. But I notice that's about the double team when Yao and Shaq get their shots. That's more a indication of their shot selection. My understanding is, they get the same treatment from opponents (double team, triple team), but Yao's more willing to pass the ball at that situation while Shaq choose to shoot it himself more. In other word, this stat shows last season Shaq beat double team better than Yao does. This makes sense because Yao said himself that only after coming out from the injury had he figured out he has to shoot the ball more even when double teamed. Peace.
First, admit that "Yao is a better defender and rebounder than Shaq". Then yell it out loud 50 times. Send an email to one of the mods to inform you have done that. You will be able to edit your posts 48 hours later. It won't hurt to take some pictures and post them here too. Good luck.
Allright Yao is the better man defender, Shaq is the better help defender. It probably seems like I hate the guy and the rockets but that couldnt be further from the truth. Remember my words a year from now, Yao will win his first of many consecutive 1st team awards. Unless Dwight and Greg Oden become the next Shaq.
Just joking. Don't take it too seriously. We poke fun at each other a lot here. Anyway, welcome to the cf.net.
Seriously, you can't be as stupid as I think you are. 1. Not calling people idiots? Perhaps it slipped your mind, or more likely, you ahem, conveniently forgot, but both you and Chronz called at least one other poster an idiot, on more than one occasion. So here's what I'm looking at a) at best we are in the same boat. b) considering that my calling you and Chronz idiots is actually justified (quite a few here showed consent to that), I'm one up. 2. The Ilgauskas, Miller, et all part? What don't you get exactly? Part of Chronz' idiotic "argument" regarding why Yao doesn't deserve the award was based on that he faces the likes of Ilgauskas, Miller, Hunter, etc, which of course, he could have merely simplified down to "every other centre in the league." Of course, he, like you, conveniently forgot that those lousy centres are the same ones faced by both Shaq and Ben Wallace, putting all three players on equal footing as far as comparisons go. Of course, according to Chronz, those lousy centres are only lousy when defended by Yao, apparently not so lousy when defended by Shaq and Ben Wallace. I pointed out his logical fallacy (to be accurate, more like purposeful misrepresentation). Now, do you get that simple logic or do I have to draw you a diagram? 3. Wait a second, do I live in a parallel universe or do you? Did you just claim that Shaq has good work ethic? 4. As pointed out to you already, twice, the all NBA teams are for THIS YEAR. What Shaq did last year, or the year before that, has no bearing, zero, zilch, nada, 0... on his selection THIS YEAR. Your thick skull can't understand this simple concept and you get offended I call you an idiot. Just wow. 5. Another one of Chronz idiotic arguments is that Yao is 7'6 so he should be good or he's just a p*ssy. Got that so far? So he's saying that Yao should be good based on the fact that he's physically gifted. Of course, he didn't apply that same standard to Shaq. For instance, he didn't say Shaq's 320 lbs and got amazing quickness for his size and so he should be dunking on people's heads or he's just a p*ssy. Now tell me, why is that? So is Yao the only physically gifted athlete in the NBA? Or maybe you are implying that Yao's gift helped score 21 PPG whereas Shaq's gift didn't help him get 20, he had to do it the hard way? Once again, using one's physical gift against one player and for another player makes him a moron. Get it? 6. Tell me, CAN YOU READ? I repeat, CAN YOU READ? Here's a quote of what I said (I hate quoting myself, but in the case of imbeciles like you, I guess there is no other alternative): "getting foul calls on the defender instead of charge on him before this year." The before this year part really is the key here now isn't it? Oh and, sorry to tell you, I did watch the playoffs and I still see plenty of calls going his way, far more than Yao ever received. And the flops, good exaggeration there. Boy, NJ is flopping like a team of Manu Ginobilis. That's a good one. See here, every player gets flops called against him. It is now your job to prove that refs buy the flops as an offensive fouls more for Shaq than the NBA average (and you'd be a lying sack of **** if you can make that claim). After that, it's your job to prove that refs buy the flops as offensive fouls more for Shaq than for Yao. Then, you have to prove that this "Shaq getting screwed" is (as compuman said), not just a statistica anomaly or rounding error with an LoS test. So get at it, I'm gonna have a beer (actually, more like many beers) in the mean time. 7. Once again, you can't read. Repeat, YOU CAN'T READ. A 7'1 - 7'2, 260 - 270 lb with average NBA quickness is trash. You are too stupid to even correctly comprehend somebody else's point and you are here debating? Don't make me laugh. 8. This last bit is the interesting part here. By your own admission: "even though most of the people disagreed with me and CHronz, they all tried to have a constructive argument" I would like to elaborate on that. Everybody who else (including me as a matter of fact) use facts, statistics, etc to back up their arguments. You and Chronz on the other hand, didn't even provide something that I can classify as anecdotal evidence. Yet both of you still felt that need to open your traps. Gee, I wonder why I call you idiots.
Oh wow, the court clown with another moronic retort. Let's see: 1. How nice to conveniently manipulate data to your advantage. I pulled up the box score from those games, specifically, I looked at how many minutes Miller and Ilgauskas played against Yao and Shaq. Let's see, here they are: Miller: vs. Yao ---------- vs. Shaq 1. 40:59 --------- 24:04 2. 38:16 3. 41.32 Ilgauskas vs. Yao ---------- vs. Shaq 1. 33:53 --------- 29:48 2. --------- 24:13 3. --------- 33:13 From the looks of it, those "good centres" as you call them, played far more against Yao than they did against Shaq. In fact, those "good centres" only cracked the 30 minute mark on one occasion against Shaq. Furthermore, whereas Shaq played essentially the same minutes as Miller and Ilgauskas, Yao played 14 minutes less than his opponents, which essentially mean not all of the points scored by Miller was against Yao. For example, the first game of the season where Miller played 41 minutes, Yao played 25. So gee, I wonder why Miller and Ilgauskas had higher numbers against Yao than against Shaq. Also, I wonder why you conveniently left out offensive stats in the comparison. Of course, all of this is ignoring the fact that Shaq has wayyyyyyyyyy better teammates than Yao does. 2. Even if we ignore your obvious logical fallacy in point 1 above and accept it as fact, how does that make Shaq a better man defender? No no, don't be modest, enlighten me on the issue. So Shaq is better against Miller and Ilgauskas but he's worse than Yao against every other centre? Hmmmmm, gee, I wonder who I would take defensively over the course of an 82 game season, Yao or Shaq. 3. Ever heard of sample size or are you too stupid to understand? Tell me, at what point does a t-distributions begin to similate a normal distribution. From what you'd suggest it's 4. 4. And you can't just shut up and accept the fact that Yao is 7'6. Only morons and people with reaon to misrepresent make unfair comparisons when it suits them. 5. Prove what? That Shaq is physically gifted? Or do you want me to prove that Shaq gets more calls? Gee, and here I thought both are facts. Do you want a detailed analysis or a quick and dirty one. How about looking up the fouls against per game, free throws per game and the same for their opponents for a change. Let's call it a homework for you, should be easy even for you. Alternatively you can just accept what I tell you, that both favour Shaq. 6. Given the above, your last statement is just hilarious. Just for the record, once again, you are a moron.
who told u that I actually agree with the Ilgauskas, miller thing ?? I haven't even opened my mouth with a freakin word supporting that way of thinking.. all I was trying to say is: try to be a little respectful and try to sound a little more "professional" in ur argument instead of going "street lang." on us... I dont understand why u gave me this big reply, I haven't even said anything talking about other centers.. I suggest u read my posts first and try (if u can) to understand my view on the topic.. dont just go crazy on me.. if I agree with Chronz on some points doesn't mean that I agree with everything.. he might be making good points but if I didn't say anything regarding it, u cant assume that I agree with him.. talkin about I cant read.. haha.. no Mr. MFW.. u dont need to draw me a diagram.. u need to go back and read my posts.. I dont even want to get down to the level u r in.. u just talk a lot of trash without knowing what's going on.. remember : I AM ROCKETSMAC, NOT CHRONZ.. we are not brothers, we are not related in anyways, we are not buddies, I dont even know him... so next time, please check the little bold writings in the left side of the post (aka. name)...and then come back with ur great arguments.. well I dont know what the heck u r thinking ??? work ethic ?? u must be kidding me... Shaq doesn't have a good work ethic ?? ok.. he is just playing for money... I understand..... and I saw a yellow elephant yesterday.. Sir, u r just proving to me that u have no comprehension what so ever... I understand that all NBA teams are for THIS YEAR, a freakin r****d can figure that out, but u dont get my point, I am trying to say that HIS GREAT EXPERIENCE AND REPUTATION AND ALL HE DID IN THE PAST YEARS GAVE HIM AN EDGE OVER YAO... I agree with u that they should only look at the season, not the dude's career.. but since we are talking Shaq here (in his final years), I dont have a problem with them giving it to him EVEN THOUGH YAO MIGHT HAS HAD AN EQUAL OR MAYBE SLIGHTLY MORE EFFICIENT SEASON... again, go say that to Chronz, not to me.. all I wanted is to have a little respect to others... for example, lets say somebody said that T-mac is trash (I am a huge T-mac fan, and I think he is better than Kobe and LEbron), I would disagree with him, try to back up my opinion with stats, WITHOUT INSULTING HIM...but that's just me, I dont know about u... same of the above... how about u tell me, CAN U READ?? I dont think so... because I understand the "BEFORE THIS YEAR" part.. and I disagree with that because u said that his reputation gave him calls on his side, whereas in reality, it's the other way around, refs have always messed with Shaq since the beginning of his career.. that is because he is so big and dominant and nobody can stop him (SAME EXACT THING HAPPENS WITH YAO, AND THAT KILLS ME).. but in the last period, they are even messing with him more...that's what I meant... and if u actually watched the playoffs (watching means: analyzing correctley), there is no way in heck u woud say that calls were going his way.. haha .. Manu Ginobilis.. that's a good one.. Sir, u got me wrong again.. I didn't say that refs mess with Shaq more than Yao.. I actually said that THEY GET TREATED EQUALLY BAD... good for u, have as many beers as u want... I dont even want to argue with u or try to prove anything.. it's pretty worthless... no comment.. u actually just made me laugh... ur argument is just hilarious.. again, I am not Chronz.. and there is no way in hell u can prove me wrong with stats because I actually agreed with everybody that Ben Wallace 2nd team is a joke.. . I also agreed with them that Yao and SHaq had awfully similar seasons, Maybe Yao had a slightly better one, but I dont have a problem with them giving it to Shaq (I respect him so much) because of his team success and past achievement ( dont even go back to "it's not a life time achievement", I swear to god I understand that, but experts who make the selection CANT IGNORE THIS KIND OF STUFF, this is how it goes in the NBA) u know what, I think I am done with my argument (if u actually want to call an argument), it was actually more of "clearing stuff out" for everybody.. seems like u dont want to change ur attitude and u r free to do that.. so I dont have a problem with u sir.. thanks for your time and hope I made myself clear here..
You seriously make no sense, and you still dont understand what Ive been tryin to say and everything you said about me is a lie, please show me one post where I SAID any of the following: I never said Yao should be good because of his size I said it helps him. Wrong your lookin dumber with each sentence, in fact I said Shaq bein a physical specimen is what makes him special so I dont know where you get your logic from. Both are winners of the genetic lottery. Wrong again buddy so far Ive shown their PER, their reb rate, the fact that Shaq got doubled in the post more than yao, and all others have shown is Yaos efg allowed. In which case I said Yao didnt have to gaurd many of the offensive minded players that Big Ben had to gaurd (which is true) Get it through your thick skull, Yao didnt gaurd many of the offensive centers that Ben had to so excuse me if Im not impressed with an incomplete stat. Had Yao played more of the offensive centers then you would have a point about them bein on equal footing. How can they be on equal footing if Ben gaurded every offensive center in the game. If you want to prove something then complete the list I didnt want to and show me the stats of every center that Yao and Shaq and Ben had to gaurd. Untill you do that its not equal footing.
Is it possible that ya'll can argue without the name calling? If you did, I would read it. When you sit there and name call, it narrows the argument to just two people, becomes personal by nature and boring for others to read. (except for rubber neckers who just love a good junior high fight) Ya'll both (Chronz, MWF) seem like you have some good points, it's just hard to dig thru the junk when you write with malice.
So because Yao couldnt stay out on the floor and because Shaq got them into foul trouble thats an excuse to get lit up? Yeah your lookin real smart there buddy. If your wondering why I left offensive stats out of a defensive argument then maybe your not as bright as you think you are. Or ignoring the fact that JVG has his players sag on the perimiter to crowed the paint which essentially the reason why we suck at gaurding the 3. Yeah it can go both ways. Umm moron if you were to read my post you would know I looked down the list of offensive centers that both Yao and Shaq gaurded and found only Z and Brad. Sorry that was so hard for you to understand Well that would require both to play 82 games to find out now wouldnt it. Enlighten me what T-Distribution? What? Whos denying that hes tall? How about the calls Shaq doesnt get, you know its a foul when defenders push shaq off with both arms. Yet its routinely ignored. So if KG doesnt get to the line much it MUST be because the refs dont put him there right? Really then What does that make you?
Thats what Ive been sayin, this guy started the whole flaming. So if you have a problem with it go to the guy who started his sentence with
