Guess what? We are comparing Yao's Defense to Ben's Defense because it worths to debate. Ben maybe able to get few more boards or blocks due to his quickness so that his individual defensive stats looks better than that of Yao's. However, if you really had watched enough Rocket's games, you can see Yao's defensive impact is just as huge as Big Ben's, if not even bigger. Since somehow you think the numbers are lying to you, I would suggest you to watch more Rockets games first before you say "it is no comparison between Ben and Yao's D". I don't know how many Rockets games have you watched, but most fans here watch at least more than half of the Rockets games in a season, and we are all able to see Yao's defensive impact easily. That's why we are jumping all over you because by reading at you post, it seems that you get your information mostly from the highlights, boxscore, and the rest of the media instead of really watching the game by yourself. Seriously, it is so frustrating because many of us are trying to show you the numbers and some other facts to support our arguements, but you just kind of ignore that and say "I don't care what you say, but Big Ben's D >>>>>>>>>>Yao's D because the media say so". I am following this year's playoff and have watched many Pistons' games, and to honest say, I don't see how Big Ben receive so much praise on his D. I mean, yea his is good at 6'9, but not as good as people like you had described. He is a good team defender and also an above average individual defender, but it's not like he single-handedly makes them one of the best defensive team, nor that no one can score on him. As many people had suggested, Ben is a better team defender because of his quickness to help his teammate, but guys like Yao and Shaq can easily power him up and dunk on his face. Yao is a better individaul defender because of his height and strength, but a relatively poorer team defender because he is too slow to help his teammates or recover his position. They are two totally different type of players, but they definitely have their own advantages and weakness at the defensive end. So how and why shouldn't there be a debate between their defensive influence? That's all I want to say....sorry for my bad english, and btw, I am a rookie on this board too.
see, I dont think y'all are getting my point.. I am just sayin u dont have to compare their D to prove that Yao is a better player because YAO IS A BETTER PLAYER, HE IS WAY BETTER THAN BEN WALLACE... but talking about D, Ben Wallace has more defensive "dimensions" as they like to call it because of his size.. He gets steals and he is mobile on the court. on the other hand, Yao is alright on D, he doesn't have as many dimesions (well, he is 7'6, u cant have a 6'9 guy quickness), but he has a height advantage and he is better when defending a "post up" player when the post-up player has his back to Yao (stationary is what they call it)... I dont believe in numbers, and many people agree with me.. numbers dont tell u everything.. and talking about watching games, I didn't miss a single quarter from a game this season.. I only missed the 4th quarter of the last game with San Antonio.... I dont watch highlights and box-score like u said.. I even watched some games twice (they rerun it on FSN at 12 oclock).. I dont think anybody watches more basketball than me.. my whole life is basketball... see, that's a good point u made.. I agree with u that Ben is a lil overrated.. I also agree with you on the fact that Ben is a better team defender and is a better individual defender.. but that actually gives an edge to Ben, because looking at basketball these days, u rarely ( or never) see good post-up centers (and I say centers, because Tim, KG, Elton, and others are PF's and Yao dont have to guard them)... instead, today's Basketball is all about quick guards and Small forwards who drive to the basket and take u off the dribble.. and that's where Ben Wallace has a SLIGHT EDGE over Yao.. he is quicker and nobody dares to drive to the hoop when he is there... that's why I am saying Ben is better than Yao on D... after all, I dont care about Yao's D.. if I had a choice between Yao and Ben, I would take Yao any time.. I would take an "old" Yao (before development) over Ben any day of the week... Yao is much better, it's a non brainer..
u know what, I over-reacted a little bit ( maybe not a little bit)... Yao is not that bad on D... I just went crazy when people talked $hit about SHaq..
I said before, I might have overreacted , I apologize.. people got me wrong ,.. I am not a Yao hater.. I dont have a problem with the dude.. I love the way he plays.. I love his game.. I love his hard work and dedication to the game... I think he is one of the best centers to play the game.. I just have so much respect for SHaq and I hatE Kobe more than anything on earth.. so I overreacted when people said SHaq doesn't deserve 1st team.. Yao might have had a better season, but Shaq's success gives him a free pass. .THAT'S ALL I'VE BEEN TRYIN TO SAY, PLEASE DONT GET ME WRONG, I AM NOT A YAO HATER.. btw, the Dampier thing was hilarious, and the Kaman thing (mr. STeve Kerr) was even funnier..
This is the unbiased version, and ought to be version of the ALL NBA team: First: Nash Kobe Lebron Brand Yao Second: Shaq Wade Dirk Tim Duncun--He should be first if you look at overall value to team instead of stat.. AI Personally, I wouldn't even put Ben Wallace on third team, I think he's useless except getting rebound and blocking shots, HE'S THE MOST OVERRATED PLAYER IN THE NBA IN THE LAST DECADE. Seriously, what's this guy good for except getting some rebounds?
Honestly, unless the awards were picked by a panel of judges who were born and raised in Houston, attended Game 4 in '95, and had tattoos of the Rockets logos on their ass (the old one on the right cheek, the new one on the left, use your imagination for the clown rocket), I doubt this board would be satisfied. Who do you all want to pick these awards? Should it be the players, who consistently vote Yao Ming as one of the most overrated players, and Jeff Van Gundy as one of the most overrated coaches? Should it be the coaches, who voted four members of the "70-win" Pistons onto the all-star team, and left Gilbert Arenas off the initial ballot? Should it be the media, who robbed Yao Ming of his rightful billing this year (a statement I don't agree with) and who gifted Steve Nash two consecutive MVPs, more than Shaq, Hakeem, Dr. J and the Big O? Look, the All-NBA teams are probably the easiest awards to predict; pick the best players on the best teams. You need both parts to be on the first team. I don't have a problem with Yao being selected to the third team; I think Shaq gets the first team based on his team's success with similar stats to Yao, and much superior to Ben Wallace, while Big Ben gets the second team because of the Pistons success, his health compared to Yao's, as well as being the Defensive Player of the Year (no matter how much you might think Wallace is undeserving, he still has twice as many DPOY awards as Dream). We all want the media to be able to have a truly informed opinion of every single player in the NBA. We ask of them to be totally impartial, to not only consider the statistics of the players, but also the nuances and things that don't show up in the books, like a great pass out of a double team that leads to two free-throws, or whether a player scores his two points by making a series of fantastic post moves, or is the recipient of multiple pinpoint alley-oops. We want the media to have watched at least 20 games of each team, in order that they don't form an opinion based on one bad game, or a career night. And above all, the media should not be able to watch ESPN, or any highlight show, because as we all know, they're extremely unfriendly to Houston, and that they cater to only dunks and big rejections. In reality, not even the most die-hard NBA fan with no responsibilities, no job and no biweekly column to write could truly be impartial and recognize the value of an altered shot, or how a certain defensive scheme leaves players out on an island to defend a much quicker player on the perimeter. Yet we demand this same level of devotion from those that vote on the All-NBA team (the 15 who voted for Yao are of exempt of course, clearly, they're all Asian, because only Asians vote for Yao in anything. Why only 15? Because Asians also vote multiple times for Yao). Writers and broadcasters are fans, just like us, who try to catch every game of the local team, most of the marquee matchups on the networks, and score a few soundbites after big wins. It's sad, but true. Yao is not a player that is treated kindly by highlights. His game is textbook and mechanical now, with little wasted motion. Why did he stop making extravagant passes and multiple up-and-under moves which got the media on his bandwagon in his rookie year? Because he no longer needs to. He could be flipping his baseline handoffs to Luther over his head, or between his legs, and I'm sure he could try the Shanghai Shake under the basket to spring free for the hoop, but instead he makes the simple, safe play of handing it off, or going strong to the rim, knowing he'll be fouled, and miss the bucket, but get two free-throws anyway. Ben Wallace, on the other hand, has an extremely highlight-friendly game. He looks good covering anybody from 1-5 on any particular play (it doesn't mean he's effective, just he doesn't look awkward, like Shaq, Yao or Kaman), and comes up with some absolutely monster dunks and blocks that make him look like an outstanding defensive player (which he is, but not twice as good as Hakeem). Yao's defensive improvement this year was largely due to positioning; a feat that kept him out of foul trouble, and out of other people's posters, but didn't help him much to shake the common opinion he's a poor defender (Dirk gets the same bad rap, I'll write my defense of his defense sometime after the Mavericks win the championship: never). My point is that while we howl about the writers being biased and not watching enough of the NBA to truly understand how good Yao Ming was, I'm sure there are tons of Memphis fans wondering what it's going to take for Pau Gasol to make it in over that bum Yao who led his team to the cellar of the Southwest division, and New Jersey fans wondering why Vince Carter couldn't garner more attention than Allen Iverson and the extremely underachieving 76ers (and as a new college student in Philadelphia, it really pained me to watch both of my teams struggle this year). Writers are only human, and like it or not, most can't have a truly and fully informed view of the entire NBA landscape (heck, even the President has an entire staff devoted to giving him briefs and breaking down all the information into little bites that are digestible. They used to give him bigger pieces, but after he choked on that pretzel, they decided to make them smaller). So don't moan and gripe about how the media is uninformed; if you had their job, I'm sure you'd end up doing the same thing.
RocketsMac is a classy guy. I appreciate it for your patience to explain your stance to different posters in this thread. The "Yao defense sucks" debate should be able to draw to a close.
thanx man.. the problem is, I get pissed real quick and i start saying crazy and harsh stuff.. I need some anger management classes ..
Ask anyone who they would rather have on their team; Ben Wallace or Yao Ming. I like Ben Wallace and all, but I am tired of his being overrated, a great defensive player, but totally worthless offensively (other than follow-up dunks and offensive rebounds). I think he deserves recognition, but as the leagues All-NBA second team center? I don't think so. I do see the argument of his being a core member and thus making the all-NBA squad on the merits of the Pistons, but it still doesn't make me happy. Stuart
Now see here rookie, I don't think you've met me yet. The other posters here so far have been very... diplomatic. Myself on the other hand, don't have a single problem with being insulting and not politically correct. So let me be the first to say, you are a moron. First of all, those same Ilgauskas, Miller, Curry, Kristic, Stephen Hunter et al, are the same players guarded by Shaq and Ben Wallace. So only a moron like yourself would make the idiotic assertion, "oh, who exactly does Yao have to guard." Secondly, both you and RocketMac (who either are yourself, or equally stupid, I find it shocking that one could find two as stupid as you on the same board) seem to take Yao's height for granted. Gee, how convenient. Guess what a 7'2, 270 pounder with no free throw shooting, average NBA centre quickness, limited low post skills, no outside shooting and lazy work ethnic be? That's right, nothing. Let me spell it out again: NOTHING. That's what Shaq would be without his size and quickness. Part of what makes Yao so damn good is his size. But morons like you implicitly suggest that Shaq's physique (as well as the tons of calls going his way) doesn't help him. Furthermore, that his reputation (ie. getting foul calls on the defender instead of charge on him before this year) doesn't help him. Here you see the difference between Yao and Shaq. You see, Yao is very skilled. Even if he were 7'2 and 270 lbs, he would still be at least serviceable, whereas Shaq would be trash. Thirdly, I believe compuman already gave you a lesson in statistical significance in which you were too stupid to understand, so I won't even bother to try again.
see, everything was going alright until this ediotic post u made (I am sorry for this kind of language, but well, if use it, I am going to use it and i dont care if I got kicked out).. we were having a good debate that helped me see the topic from a different view and partially changed my stance of the thing.. a lot of people misunderstood me and then I corrected myself so everybody would clearly understand my stance... then u just come in and start talking **** about a dude in here.. Chronz is making good points.. u dont just go out and call people morons for their opinion.. it's called freakin forum, not a place to force ur opinion on everybody... I suggest u watch ur freakin lanuage O.K.. I dont care if u r a contributing member, that doesn't mean u call somebody else a moron.. I am not trying to argue with u, I actually agree with u on some points, but being this aggressive just pisses me off.. I dont get this part... and no, I am not Chronz.. please everybody, stop that bull****.. it's getting old and it's not freakin funny anymore... so please, dont try to be smart A$$es and make up stuff... and I dont appreciate u calling me stupid.. please, have some respect.. who the hell do u think u r ?? first of all,not trying to be a D1ck or anything, but it's called WORK ETHIC...:http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=work ethnic... and I dont understand how u r calling Shaq all of these names.. SHaq is one of the best center in the history of the NBA.. he is a freak 30 something veteran.. u dont disrespect him like that.. now u might have an argument that Yao had A SLIGHTELY BETTER SEASON that Shaq.. but to talk **** about SHaq's whole career is just non-sense... average center quickness?? limited low post skills ?? u must be ****ting me... u r actually contradicting ur self.. first u say he is average center quickness, then u say that what he would be without his size and quickness. .there is something wrong... and I dont get the last part, are u saying that Yao is quicker than SHaq ?? I suggest u watch some playoff games.. tons of calls going HIS WAY.. are u kiddin me ?? everybody knows that Shaq and Yao always get ripped by refs.. it's because of their size.. u cant say that Shaq's reputation gets him calls from the refs.. all of these offensive calls on SHaq (and even Yao) are all bull crap.. they should be flops.. everybody who cant defend Shaq and Yao starts to flop and gets the call because SHaq & Yao are so dominant and nobody can stop them 1 on 1 with their back to the basket... I dont even want to say anything here... Shaq is trash ?? ok... I dont know why u keep doing that .. I've never seen a bigger trash talker than u.. even though most of the people disagreed with me and CHronz, they all tried to have a constructive argument and showed some respect (thank u vcchlw ).. once again, if u find no problem in being insulting, I do and I bet u everybody else does.. that's all I had to say...
Your a joke of a poster. I think you need to take a good look at what you just said. Yea those are all the same players that were gaurded by Shaq and Ben only Im talkin about Yao. And many of those players he did not gaurd once this season which was the point of my post. And your callin me an idiot? Your a joke man go find another board to spread your biased hate, I think you resort to online bashing to hide the fact that you know so little of what your talkin about. Statistical Evidence heres some statistical evidence for you. Lets compare the few offensive centers that Yao had to gaurd and see how they matched up against Yao and Shaq. Offensive Centers VS Yao ---------PPG-Reb-Ast--FGA/M Zydrunas-21---8---0---8/18 44% 1.16pps (1Game) B.Miller---24---9---5---26/48 54% 1.50pps (3games) Offensive Centers VS Shaq ---------PPG--Reb-Ast--FGA/M Zydrunas-13.3--8---0---3/11 48% 1.14pps (3games) B.Miller----9.0---4---4---4/9 44% 1.0pps (1Game) Both Shaq and Yao missed alot of games but lookin down the list of who Shaq matched up with and Yao matched up with, it doesnt take a genious to know Yao rarely had to gaurd anyone. And when he did he faired slightly worse than shaq. But he isnt so you cant just take away what makes Shaq great. He is a physical specimen the likes of which has never been seen in the NBA. So yea its very weak argument. Shaq is what he is and I think you have me confused for a Yao basher when all Ive been doin is sayin hes not worthy of 1st team. I never said he wasnt a great defender all Ive been sayin is that bein a great man defender doesnt say much when you consider the very few offensive centers are left. Prove it, your words meen nothing to me. Again not impressive considering the fact that he didnt gaurd many offensive centers and his own coach said Yao needs to step up his defense.
I just don't understand how a player who significantly hurts his team on offense can be 2nd team all-nba. he is a good defender but he is not dominating like dream was. ben wallace is a poor man's rodman...am I completely off base here?
So Yao didn't guard Ilgauskas, Krstic, or Curry? Then which Rocket did? The only one who MFW2310 mentioned there who Yao might not have guarded is Steven Hunter, which doesn't matter anyway since I don't even know why that guy is being mentioned amongst the others. Great, cherry pick two players and a couple games and use that against Yao. You know very well that Z's ONE good game against Yao might have been a good night, and that Miller's ONE bad game against Shaq might have just been a bad night. Shaq and Yao were very close in man defense against opposing centers. Shaq's points allowed was 0.9 better than Yao's per 48 minutes, while Yao gave up an eFG% of 1.8% better than Shaq. Don't just say something like "lookin down the list." You're making an outrageous claim ("Yao rarely had to guard anyone"), so you provide some real evidence. Make a list of all the guys Yao had to guard and compare it to the list of guys Shaq guarded, taking their normal performances into consideration. Or at least point out a few specifics.
I Haha I wasnt tryin to cherry pick I just looked at the list of Center Yao has matched up with that were also matched up with Shaq and I only found Brad and Zydrunas. Shaq had to gaurd more offensive minded centers than Yao did. Your right disregard that last post. Ill get started on the list and include any center that both Yao and Shaq had to gaurd. Yao struggles with Jumpshooting bigmen but in the post hes definately among the best.
Man *** the list you its goin to eat up alot of time and money so lets just say Yao IS the better man defender if thats what you guys want it still doesnt change my stance on Shaq bein the better defender and more worthy of 1st team based on his team success, overall statistics, and that the fact that he was still doubled in the post more than Yao was.
You do realize in this forum you backup your point with data, right? Shaq better than Yao based on overall statistics, what overall statistics? I think many posters here already showed Yao's overall stat is better than Shaq's. And the argument you mentioned time after time -- Shaq is doubled more than Yao is -- any prove of that? Don't say you clearly see it -- your credit here is not enough to be a prove, and it's hard to believe you watched the whole (or at least most of) 100+ games those 2 played this season. Oh, btw, everybody is entitled of his own opinion. Nobody is trying to change your stance. Relax, kid. Keep your stance and your f language.
