Achebe and Finalfantasy, I'm sorry I have to address both of you with this, but let me try to address your points as best I can. 1. Drexler, Elie, KJ, and anyone I've quoted had more than personality conflicts with the man. To help you out, Clyde said himself that he and Barkley are still friends and always got along off the court. In fact, I'm not sure where the "thinks he talks to much" comes from. He said point blank that his problem with Charles was that there two styles of basketball did not mesh. As far as Elie is concerned I should not have mentioned the Toronto situation because it didn't address my point. He did frequently comment about how he wanted to run more and privately that was directed at Charles (Clyde said so himself) 2. Finalfantasy, you bring up and my quote as a way to discredit me and completely misunderstood what I said. It's one thing not to like someone you work with, but if there is a complaint that is repeated constantly about the way I do my job then it is something that needs to be addressed. Similarly, if you are in the service industry and several people say this person acts like a jerk, then because customer service is important than that is something that should be addressed. Like I've been saying, it's the numbers here that are overwhelming. 3. I have quoted nothing about personality conflicts. To bring up the fact that no one in Phily or Phoenix had a personality conflict with him as a way to discredit me doesn't address the issue I have raised. Logically speaking, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. It is absolutely ludicrous to ask eleven people to change their style for one person. It is ludicrous to ask all of the people who have complained about Barkley's style of play to change just for him. 4. As far as Pippen is concerned I think you are having difficulty seperating the validity of his comments from the the venue that he chose to make them. If you get beyond the "fat butt" and "at gunpoint" comments you see what is truly at the essence of this deal. He didn't like the style of play and he thought Barkley was lazy. Should he have bailed? Of course not, should he have worked to incorporate himself into the offense? Of course. If you want to turn this into a Scottie vs Barkley war then you'll have no argument from me. Scottie is dispictable. On the other hand, I don't think you'll find too many people in the forum who think Clyde and Mario are as well. Basically, the way I look at Charles is that he puts out great effort on the court, but if he put redirected that effort some and worked in practice and in the offseason then he would already have his championship. That's the issue as far as I see it. I either choose to listen to dozens who have critized Charles for the exact same thing or I choose to believe Charles. The choice is yours ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
Barzilla: 1) If you say I totally misunderstood some of your points and have difficulty on the Scottie Pippen issue, which I didn't, then what about you? Let me just point out your contradiction. "Drexler, Elie, KJ and anyone I have quoted had more than personality conflicts with the man." then later in the third part it became "I have quoted nothing about personal conflicts, to bring up the FACT that no one in Phily or Phoenix had a personality conflicts with him to discredit me doesn't address the issue I have raised." So it seems you don't know what you are talking about, do you?
I think the relationship between Drexler and Barkley is way too exagerated. Granted they didnt mix but it wasnt that bad. Who was the one that bailed barkley out that night he threw someone out the window? Actually who went out with him to a bar? That's right MR. Drexler
See the only things, we see are the comments on the air? For example, BArkley + Drexler exchanged some nice commmets at the begininng of last season. Where Barkley talked about how the year before everyone gave up and Drexler responded by saying "who was the one coming into camp overweight?"
Finalfantasy, Can you please read my posts before you comment on my "contradictions". It would be a lot more helpful in this discussion. Achebe and yourself brought up the notion of a "personality conflict". If you can't understand that then it's no use arguing. My point (and I want you to read this carefully so that you don't mess it up again) is that ALL OF THESE PLAYERS HAD PROBLEMS WITH BARKLEY'S STYLE OF PLAY. Thus, the notion that there is more there than a personality conflict. I've never once said anyone had a personality conflict with him. If that is too difficult for you to understand than so be it. So let me clarify this again in case you missed it. My concern is not whether or not anyone has a personality conflict with Barkley. I don't know Barkley, Pippen, Elie, or Drexler, so personalities aren't my concern. I do think their problems with his style of play are more significant because that effects their working relationship. ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
Let me just jump in here and add a few things. I agree 110% with everything Barzilla is saying. Just let me add some things that always seem to come up. Scottie Pippen: Whenever people judge what he said, they always bring up the comments he made about Charles, or the way he addressed the situation. I think what Barzilla is trying to say here is that Scottie Pippen himself is just a very insecure person. He does not know how to handle situations and he just doesn't have the charismatic ability to express his standpoint effectively through the media...hence, "sorry fat butt" and other unappealing arguments come from this man. Overlook all of that. The argument is not, "is Scottie Pippen a good person?", the argument is, "What exactly was Scottie Pippen trying to say?" We already know that he is an insecure person who can't express what he thinks correctly, so we can't hold the way he bailed on this team against the Barkley argument. He didn't express it correctly, but the heart of his argument was on base. Charles Barkley never practices hard and he isn't about winning...'nuff said. I wholeheartedly agree with Pip's argument, I just wish he could have expressed it better. Charles Barkley: I agree with Barzilla's argument again here. It is so painfully obvious that Charles is not about fitting in and doing things for the betterment of the team. The guy wants to win, but he wants to be "The Man" while doing it. He also is not nearly committed enough. I have said it about a million times, and I will say it again...if Charles Barkley had 1/10th the work ethic Karl Malone has off the court, he would have won championships by now. That's how much talent he has, and had wasted over his good years. I don't even want to go deep into the "Charles is a hypocrite" argument. He goes off and blasts the younger generation about doing stupid things, and then he runs his mouth about Mathis, continually makes bonehead plays, and chunks bonehead 3's to steal the show. Let me ask you this, FinalFantasy: If the Rockets were in the 4th quarter, down by about 3, with about a minute left, and Kelvin Cato came down the court and chunked up a 3, what would you say? And we know that if it was Steve Francis or Kelvin Cato or any youngster in Charles' position cursing out Mathis, we would have heard another long sermon about the "kids" of the NBA.
barzilla, (and cabbage) sorry, this is a long one... i'll try this again, with the notion that you are now concerned w/ charles' style of play vs. the effect that he has on his teammates. i could have sworn that i've read posts by you on charles' having alienated himself from his teammates by his attitude, comments, etc. i am however, too bored w/ this to go dredging through your history. okay. on the post dated 9:33pm 1) how did charles do anything for the rockets that wasn't asked of him? note: i followed charles to the rockets b/c i was a charles fan, not a rockets fan. i'm not sure if you watched any games w/ charles pre96, but trust me, he didn't play this damn way. backing it in, kicking it out to the 3 is rudy's invention, not charles (hmmm... dream never played this boring arse offense pre charles did he?) so, how does charles get in the way of the run & gun... it seems so painfully obvious to the 'barkley zealots' that we have used a better offensive game these past 3-4 games, one that utilizes charles talent's, and we have flourished. could you please address finalfantasy's question as to why charles is supposed to go outside of his coach's sytem? you being the detractor would of course (as would i) that if charles were to do that that he should be benched, only you, unlike myself, give charles no options to abide by. ps. quote: He did frequently comment about how he wanted to run more and privately that was directed at Charles (Clyde said so himself) privately? said so himself? this makes no sense. pss. again: did you ever see the suns play w/ barkley at the 4? 2.) unless i've missed the meat of your assertion, or you want to redefine it, i covered this in number one. using your coach's system. 3) quote: Logically speaking, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. It is absolutely ludicrous to ask eleven people to change their style for one person. It is ludicrous to ask all of the people who have complained about Barkley's style of play to change just for him okay spock, this is ridiculous. not only is it untrue but not relevant(please see working in the system, covered in #1) charles, again, did not play this way before he met one Rudy Tomjanovich and his system entitled 'boring the hell out of 13 players; with 3 on IR'. 4)i ask that you review posts by clutch, dated last friday (the hou/por game) in which pippen declares that he used barkley as a scapegoat to try to get traded to LA. i was under the impression that this was always obvious, not merely b/c pippen is a four year old. please address your assertion that elie didn't like charles' style of play. i would find this very educational. you have implied that each of these three players left for some reason b/c of charles (personality vs. game doesn't seem to really matter to you), could you address my (or finalfantasy's) claims as to why each of these players left? i think that for 2 out of 3, it's fair to say that charles wasn't the issue. as far as clyde goes, he was to be a rocket no longer, so it's moot. cabbage: It is so painfully obvious that Charles is not about fitting in and doing things for the betterment of the team. so painfully obvious ehhh??? could you please enumerate these things for the painfully obviously visually challenged? charles, to me, seems to go above and beyond for this team. who on the rockets take freakin' ivs to their back to continue to play for the betterment of the team? outside of cato & francis (maybe mobley, tmass if he ever played) giving their all, i'm not sure that i see the 'take a charge' mentality in anyone else on this team other than charles. i would argue that the other players have learned this mentality ONLY FROM CHARLES. taking an IV to the back to continue to play is not lighthearted. taking a charge post double hernia operations, is not lighthearted. coming back early after medial meniscus surgery is... trying to play w/ a torn triceps is... here's the boxscore for the last game: http://www.espn.go.com/nba/2000/991202/boxscore/houlac.html barkley's ft shooting, was of course atrocious, but i would love to see how you deduce that his play was anti-team... or would you like to take a moment, assume the conclusion that charles is still an ill fit, and redraw the premises? we call that begging the question.
Anyone else see the problem when a player lambastes "certain, but not named" players for showing up right on time to practice, but he himself shows up right before tipoff??? Hypocracy...You bet. But thats been Barkleys game for the last few years.
Whatever people say or write about Barkley's personality, etc., they cannot deny him (with or without a championship) his place in NBA history as one of the ALL-TIME GREATS: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/career/charles_barkley.html When Barkley played for Philly, he carried that team like you wouldn't believe. With the exception of his rookie year, Barkley routinely shot over 55%, scored over 20 ppg, with double figure rebounds to boot. What's extraordinary is that this 6'4" fat man could in one season (79 out of 82 games) shoot 60%(!!!) enroute to scoring 28 ppg. Barkley has sacrificed a lot in search of that elusive championship. He changed his game to fit in with Phoenix and Kevin Johnson. He changed his game to fit in to Houston. Sure, you can question his work ethic. Sure, he doesn't like to practice. Sure, he mouths off. But no one can ever say that he didn't bring it night in night out. I find it laughable that Pippen should critize Barkley's practice habits. What's the use of Pippen showing up to practice when he doesn't show up at games (play 48 minutes and score 2 points). If Pippen practiced so hard, how come he couldn't learn to fit into the system. It seems Pippen didn't learn a damn thing at practice. Hey, how come Pippen only scored 5 points last night while Portland was getting hammered by L.A.? Pippen ain't got enough game to be criticizing anybody much less Charles Barkley.
WIGMAN, I agree wholeheartedly with your post.Winning a championship would be great,but even without it,he's one of the best ever. This bit about having to win a championship to be a "great" player puzzles me at times. To wit,David Robinson was regarded on here to many as a chump because he never won a championship,now that he won one,is he a great player? I would think the greatness of your career would be measured on the culmulative results of all the seasons,not just on one. Anyone else beside me notice the irony of the players that writer used to bash Barkley's lack of dedication? Shaq[the man who shoots freethrows at a lower success rate than most high school players] has spent his off seasons doing movies and rap albums.Pippen has shown his dedication to winning by refusing to go into games when his play was'nt called,and missing a game due to a headache. Hardly the players I'd use to get my point across,Mr Writer!!
Okay Achebe, here it goes, Let me address the Elie situation as to clear up any confusion. I was leaving work when I heard Clyde Drexler being interviewed by Kenny Hand on 610 AM. At that time, he cleared up any misconceptions about his relationship with Charles. He said they always got along off the court, but their on court styles simply didn't mesh. He also commented on Elie and Pippen saying that they had problems with Barkley's style of play as well. Elie himself has never publically blamed Charles to my knowledge, but he did say he wanted to run more, and Clyde clarified that it was primarily Charles he was concerned with. Have I seen Charles play pre 1996? Absolutely, I watched the Rockets beat him twice in a row in the playoffs. I watched the Suns offense go from being centered around KJ (because Smith and Cassell are terrible defenders) to being centered around Charles who was struggling against Thorpe and then Horry. Charles game has not changed that much in the half court set folks. He prides himself on waiting for the right moment to draw the foul or make the pass. I will agree with you that Phoenix certainly ran more than we did, but that had little to do with Charles. What about the coach's system? I don't know where to start here, because I'm obviously not in the lockerroom, or in training camp when this is decided. I would certainly surmise though that a lot of what the system involves (particularly this season) came about because of lobbying by Dream and Charles. Again, that's pure conjecture and not really germane to my argument. What is germane is that if you were a Suns fan then you did not see the Rockets offense prior to 1996. All post players are not equal. Hakeem typically makes up his mind quickly which allows the perimeter players more time to be creative. This is exactly why Drexler said that while he didn't like Barkley's style he thought that they should pass it to Hakeem more. Therefore, it's not necessarily that Charles gets the ball in the post, but that he keeps in the post too long to allow the perimeter players any leeway. The Rudy system works on ball movement. If he is backing it in, backing it in, backing it in..... then the ball isn't moving. The Running Game Have you ever noticed what a Charles Barkley rebound entails? First, you have to rotate your elbows a little to make sure no one is there. If you're on the road you yell a few things to the crowd. Then the point guard is waiting for the ball and everyone else is downcourt. Or worse, everyone grew tired of your act and you have to bring the ball down yourself. That isn't exactly conducive to running. ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
Finalfantasy, You raised some good points. Thank you for correctly understanding my points. Now we are on the right track. As far as Drexler's comments, I think it may have been a shot at Barkley, but I also think he was using those two players to provide an example of what Barkley's style does to a player who needs the open lane to create. Obviously, Drexler and Pippen were never teammates in Houston so whatever he says about Pippen's feelings is pure conjecture. Basically, my only question is this. Are we to assume that everyone else is comfortable with Barkley's style because they choose not to say anything? As far as I know, I can't remember Mack, Dickerson, Cat, or anyone else commenting either way. Are we assuming that this means they feel they benefit from Barkley's style, or are they simply rookies who know it is not in their place to question it, but to blend in? My point is purely this. If you want to say that Drexler, Pippen, and Elie need to adapt their styles to fit with Barkley then that is perfectly logical. However, with Drexler and Pippen in particular it is also incumbent on Charles to meet them half way. If you don't then the team will not work as smoothly as it could. ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
thanks for the info barzilla, i don't live in houston, so i don't get to hear all of the rockets sports info (instead i have the lousy gordon monson and ron boone; maybe when the rockets get back on their winning ways i'll be able to listen to them again rather than npr ) i had mistakenly inferred that drexler and charles had larger problems than they apparently had. i do seem to remember charles being asked about their relationship last year and him acting confused as to why clyde would have had trouble with him. i'm not sure if kenny 'the jet' was hamming something up or what... as far as elie not meshing w/ charles, again, i think that the rockets were comfortable w/ dickerson (post humously, i think they would have been wiser to choose someone w/ an attitude ala elie), not that elie left b/c of charles. in fact, i remember reading the san antonio express news (man i'm pathetic) back when the rockets and spurs played last year, and elie saying how he was hurt b/c the barkley si issue had just come out and barkley said (opening his damn mouth again) that the 97-98 rockets were no fun b/c he thought that drexler and elie were too concerned about their contracts instead of their games... elie did the 'et tu barkley' act, which seemed to me a) genuine on elie's behalf b) that elie thought that he had a good rapport w/ barkley i realize that this is personality vs. game again, but i thought it interesting...
Barzila, first you used Pippen to against Barkley's style, under the circumstances that Pippen would sell his motehr to get out of Houston, then you admitted Pippen is a despicable person. How can you find credibility in a despicable person without questioning his words first is beyond me. The logic as more people say the same damn thing so that their needs should be obeyed is ridiculous. If such "outnumbering" logic works, fine, the ones who didn't complain about CB's play outnumber the three guys you mentioned astronomically. Following you reasoning, it should be those three guys who change their style for CB. To tell the truth, even rookies like Micheal Dickerson and Cuttino Mobley adjusted to CB's style without a problem, if veterans can't cope with it I prefer to think it's their own problem. As to the core of the question, that CB is burning more clock than Hakeem, I need to say, that is what you want CB to do to get the most out of his play, the system of Houston is based on dump it in, find the open man and shoot the threes. If Clyde, Elie and Pippen can't drive, slash, shoot threes off the double teaming created by CB, while other rookies and Sam Mack could do that, I prefer to think they have problems themselves. Furthermore, I don't think that CB didn't give them enough time to operate either, although he does use more time, but the clock usually leaves 7-8 seconds for the guards to shoot. That is more than enough. Finally, Drexler's comment is very questionale, and I am sorry, I think you didn't exactly listened to what he said, or repeated exactly what he said. The reason is simple, you quoted Drexler saying Mario Elie and Pippen had difficulty to deal with CB's style of play. I don't know about Elie, although I think he sucked the year he left and possibly needed a scapegoat to shift blame, but if you choose to believe him it's up to you. Anyway, the thing is Pippen was trashing the Rockets and Barkley after CB asked him to apologize, out of many things he said, he never complained about CB's style of play in particular. He never claimed that CB's post up is too slow for him to operate and so forth, in fact, while he called CB a fat ass, he avoided to blame his underachievement on anyone else's playing, as he knows that can't stand examination, it's him who sucked, plain and simple. Even Pippen didn't choose to blame CB's style of play conviniently, why not say that if it's the truth? Pippen already insulted CB inside out anyway. The things Pippen said is inconsistent with Drexler's words. So Clyde Drexler is either guessing Pippen for hindsight to give CB a cheap shot or someone listened wrong.
