Role (sp?) Call: Who is not working May 1st?

The first thing that's needed is to document all of these illegal immigrants so we know who and where they are. I have yet to see a particularly compelling case for either the "path to citizenship" or the "guest worker program" but these are most likely close to what we're going to have to do.

The first step is to make sure that our border is secure first. Once we've secured that (through whatever means we need to) then we can begin to deal with the people here. While you present a viable solution, I'm worried that any further laws and/or programs will be rendered moot in 10 years when this whole problem comes up again because we passed laws without securing the border.

 

It's commendable. However, you're a citizen and have done things the right way and that's not the subject of a lot of these marches and talks. Somewhere along the line, you decided to apply through the proper channels and I have no problem with that. The same thing happened with my grandfather.

I'm not against immigration. I'm against illegal immigration.

 

This "illegal behavior" argument is a load of pooey.

Nothing in life is a black/white issue. In reality, things are shades of grey.

Illegal Immigrants are probably the most law abiding people in the country ...using a shade of grey scale rather than a black/white scale.

For example, did you drive to work today? How many times did you break the law driving? Have you ever let your tags expire? Have you or anybody in your family ever had a run-in with the law (esp as teenagers)? So for illegal behavior, how many shades of grey do you have relative to an illegam immigrant?

So get off your high horse for a minute by saying protesters are supporting illegal behavior. Only Mother Theresa was a saint ...everybody else has issues.

Technically, illegals broke the law ONCE to get here. But after that, illegals are probably MORE law abiding than you. If you are here illegally, then you do everything you can to stay under the radar to not get deported. They arn't stealing, mugging or even speeding.

If you are indeed perfect, illegals are MUCH more law abiding than a good portion of citizens. American criminals cost American taxpayers probably 1000x as much money as illegal immigrants (ahem Ken Lay).

 

My fault for the misunderstanding.

I understand your comment about lazy people, however, to paint lazy as only characteristic of one or two races just isn't true.

 

If I'm caught breaking the law, I pay the consequences. I've never had a cop say "It's OK that you were speeding because you really had to get to work on time."

Has anyone ever been caught robbing a bank and been told, "It's OK. You're just really in need of the money and who are we to judge you."

No. Because they are illegal actions and illegal actions have consequences. If I'm caught doing something illegal, I don't expect society to adapt to ME I suffer the consequences of my actions.

And your assumption that illegals are otherwise law abiding isn't necessarily true. Aren't there correlations between areas with high illegal immigration content and crime? After all, if they're poor enough to need to come over here for work, what happens when they can't find any? Do you think a lot of them care about getting caught and deported? They'll just come right back.

 

Do you really believe that someone loves America more because they waited to get their legal immigration status and they live half way across the world. I mean, maybe they had no other choice? Given the choice would they wait or just make the trip?

I know some South Americans and Asians who come over here on legal visas, student or tourist, but once they expire they stay here illegally, work, and get their papers fixed later. Should they be rewarded with citizenship even though they broke the law? Would there be enough workers in this country if everyone followed the law? Because I think there are only a limited number of work visas that the US government allows other countries to give out.

It's not as cut and dry as some people make it out to be...

 

There is such a thing as civil disobedience. The marchers in Selma and Birmingham supported behavior that violated the local segregation voting laws.

Not saying that this situation is comparable but if you don't agree with a law its your right to protest it.

 

so did san antonio just shut completely down today or what?

 

The compelling case is that as long as there is an economic disparity between the US and its neighbors you're going to have a lot of immigration. The problem is that right now the US immigration laws are out of step with the economic realities of the situation and until they do we will have a problem. IMO a vastly expanded guest worker program is the best solution along with a path for citizenship for those willing to put up with the requirements. From my understanding many illegals don't want to stay but just earn money for their familes and someday go back. If we can bring them out of the shadows I don't think we have too much to fear from them remaining here. For those who are willing to undertake the already tough requirements for citizenship they will help renew our society and economy as the previous waves of immigrants have.

I agree our border should be secure and that is the responsibility of every country to secure their borders. As long as the economic disparity remains though there will continue to be illegals since there is a huge demand on both sides. Until that is addressed there is no such thing as a 100% solution.

My own greater concern regarding this issue is the Nativist undercurrent of the anti-immigration side. While its true that the main target of this is towards illegals but many of the arguments are cultural and would apply to all immigrants. So while illegals are the main whipping boy this could easily spill out and target all immigrants.

 

One more comment. I've noticed many posters have brought up that granting illegals amnesty insults those who came here legally because legal immigrants had such a hard time getting you. Illegals coming here don't just stroll across the border or have a leisurely swim but many of them suffer an incredibly hard journey across deserts or stuffed into trucks and boxcars and many of them die horrible deaths of dehydration and suffocation to get here. Chinese illegals endure dangerous sea voyages stuffed into shipping containers followed by in many cases a dangerous overland trip. Illegals of all countries also end up having to pay extortionists sums to Coyotes and other smugglers and in China a whole village might end up going into debt to get one or two people over.

Illegals don't have an easy trip over here and in many cases their voyage here is deadly to them and to say that its dishonoring legal immigrants because they didn't go through the honorious bureaucracy ignores the sacrifies the illegals have gone through to get here.

 

...if you're an American citizen.

 

No. The MANY people I know in this situation had the money and the choice but chose to do it the right way.

No.
Yes.

It's also not as complicated as some people make it out to be.

 

Yes and as an American I'm free to protest laws I disagree with. Anyway free speech applies to anyone in America. The text of the First Ammendment doesn't mention citizenship.

 

CAUGHT is the operative word. How many times do you break the law while driving and you aren't caught? ...and OF the times you are caught, cops frequently give people warnings.

So point being, don't be so quick to cast judgement on people breaking the law. It isn't the black/white issue you portray. We all "break the law" at times.

Tell that to OJ Simpson. If you are rich enough, society adapts ALL THE TIME. Does being rich make it better to do illegal things? Society thinks so.

I'm not saying it is 100% true. There are exceptions to every law (pun intended).

First you are countering my assumption with your own assumption.

Secondly, a correlation isn't fact. You argument of "high illegal immigration" is only factual if there are no legal immigrants or citizens also living in the same area. I'd argue that the areas you speak of are high in crime due to it being a low income area ...not an area of "high illegal immigration." Please give me two examples of an illegal immigrant commiting a serious crime (one that you and I wouldn't also be guilty of). If you do, then I'm sure I can give you 10 examples of citizens commiting the same crime. Illegal immigrants are not responsible for our crime wave. The ONE exception might be the MS 150 gang but they aren't even from Mexico.

Again, you are making assumptions?

 

Ok, so you're saying it's as easy to get into America from an Asian country and South America as it is from Mexico? How do you know if they had that choice? They actually tell you, "Yeah, I could have come over here illegally, but I love America so I'm going to wait"? You're basically saying that if Mexico was half way accross the world there would still be an immigration problem with Mexicans.

Can you tell me how many people are unemployed in the US? Does that number equal the number of illegal immigrants in this country today?

EDIT: Actually, that question is incorrect, because I'm assuming all the unemployed people with college degrees or just a higher expectation level of their job would be willing to work the jobs that illegals do today.

If it wasn't there would be a clear solution, or at the very least a clear understanding of the effects of illegal immigration, as of now it's still a heavily debated topic.

 

I agree that my example was also based on assumptions so it probably was not a good counterpoint.

However count me a skeptic that illegal immigrants are law abiding citizens when the simple fact that they're in this country shows a lack of respect for those laws.

 

A problem I have is the advantage illegals have over legal citizens in wages.

Example:

There are cases where illegals are making,,, oh 12 bucks an hour (and yes they don't all work for below minimum wage).

An illegal can afford to work for 12 bucks an hour since they don't have to pay taxes, etc... meanwhile a legal citizen would need more income than that since they are having to actually pay taxes, etc

 

and you could argue that the taxes would be low at that wage level anyways, but you could substitute taxes for car insurance or any other expense that illegals are often times not having to pay

 

The Bill of Rights was designed to protect citizens from government tyranny, right? Not sure what that has to do with an illegal immigrant.