Stupid immigration protesters

I realize that. My point is that in the here and now, America isn't going to pursue policies which will eventually surrender its status as the world's unipolar power even if it will benefit the entire free market. If Bush issued a mandate that companies had to start outsourcing to Latin America so that we could start increasing living standards there, American business would riot.

I don't agree that all nations will meet in the middle, though. Yes, outsourcing creates a middle class in the outsourced country which will now buy more goods, which benefits many East Asian nations. But it's not like there's a burgeoning tech industry in, say, Chile. There are still going to be countries that have no resources which they possess a comparative advantage in, and won't be able to provide anything in the market but labor for the wealthy nations.

 

Giddy pointed out I was mistaken about the English requirement. English is in fact a requirement. So if you ran accross 70 year old man, should the government be in the business of ensuring naturalized citizens STAY fluent in English?

That gets back to the "assimilation" conversation.

btw, fighting a fight on principle almost always is a lose-lose situation for everybody involved ...including yourself.

If you take somebody to court ...on principal... you have to take time out of your day and incur the court/laywer fees.

If you engage in a fist fight ...on principal... you likely will get hurt too.

 

If you engage in a fist fight.....on principal...you likely will get expelled from school.

 

To be clear, I'm not arguing that people shouldn't assimilate. I'm arguing that the government shouldn't be in the business of assimilating people. It has happened organically since 1776 up until now and I don't see any need to change things.

If these Mexican and other Latino illegals become naturalized, this conversation of "assimilation" is unnecessary.

 

FYI:

HOUSTON—April 3—Rice University is hosting a forum with political leaders and scholars to discuss one of the hottest social issues of the year—immigration—on Wednesday, April 19, at 6:30 p.m. in the Grand Hall of the Rice Memorial Center.

Titled “USA Immigration: Truths and Myths,” the forum will seek to inform and shed light on the complicated issue of Hispanic immigration.

“It is imperative that the community at large be better informed on immigration issues and have an opportunity, in a nonpartisan setting, to participate in the formulation of future U.S. Immigration policy,” says Dr. Dorothy Caram, co-chair of the event.

The panel will consist of four speakers: State Representative Rick Noriega, Attorney Monty Jacob, University of Houston sociologist Nestor Rodriguez, and University of Texas A&M sociologist Rogelio Saenz.

Rice University professor Richard Tapia will be the moderator, and Attorney Adan Vega will coordinate the roundtable discussion.

The event is free and open to the public.

The immigration forum is being sponsored by The Houston Hispanic Forum, Society of Latino Alumni of Rice (SOLAR), the Hispanic Association for Cultural Enrichment at Rice (HACER), the Republican National Hispanic Assembly (RHNA), and the Harris County Tejano Democrats.

 

Accommodate and assimilate are two VERY different things in my mind.

Maybe you and I are talking about different things. Others previously mentioned that these new immigrants should not simply move into "little Mexico" when they are naturalized. My response is that the government has no say in where its citizens chose to live. Do you disagree?

In terms of speaking English, it's already been demonstrated that speaking English is a requirement for naturalization.

"assimilation" is not a bad word unless the government is doing it. This country has been assimilating immigrants for 230 years just fine. Why does the government need to get involved in it now?

 

You raise some good points and I agree with a lot of them which is why I said in my posts this won't be an easy or short term solution. IMO though it is the only solution that could work. With a global shipping and communication there is a greater chance of moving capital around the world and raising the living standards of even countries that have limited resources. While yes the US won't simply give away resources the longterm benefits of a global economy will eventually come back to the US by creating new markets and also reducing pressures for illegal immigration. Obviously its up to other countries to take steps on their own to reform their governments, build up infrastructure and educate their people but at the sametime the US government, businesses and people can help by liberalizing trade and investment policies, supporting education and infrastructure projects.

 

First off, this isn't just about Mexicans. I would expect the same from an immigrant coming from Sweden or China or Africa or India...or Canada. It doesn't have anything to do with race. Second, no - its not racist at all. You've given no reason why it would be other than asserting assimilation is a word used to cover racism. The 'melting pot' requires mixing.

You shouldn't have to force anyone to assimilate. An immigrant should want to become part of our greater community. If they don't there is no presumption to let them in. There are plenty of people who do.

Exactly. Great post.

 

I don't want to put words in krosfyah's mouth so I'll let him reply to that - but it's not as though first-generation immigrants, after the process of naturalization, suddenly become entirely Americanized. It's their children who are raised American, and their parents gave them the opportunity to be raised here.

Is anyone really taking a Lou Dobbs position on this and saying that upon entry, immigrants should forget about where they came from and never again take part in any of their origin country's traditions, or speak their own languages? Assimilation is a gradual process, transmitted through exposure to other norms and values. That's why it's so much easier for kids to do it, by virtue of going through the public school system and interacting with people from all walks of life. I agree with the point that immigrants should be expected to integrate themselves into the fabric of society enough to deal with Americans. But I don't think that just because someone doesn't speak English, that they shouldn't be allowed to be here.

 

No, I don't think anyone is taking that position. To be clear - I am not.

Of course assimilation is a gradual process. But it has to start with the immigrant wanting to do so. I don't think there is any reason to let someone come in who wants to take advantage of the benefits of living here without wanting to be part of the greater community. There are plenty of people who WANT to do so. I say let all those who do, in. Those who don't, who want to just recreate their own community here - should stay where they are. Its not complicated, its not racist, and its not unreasonable.

 

I'll agree with you that people SHOULD assimilate. But how do you propose to accomplish it. THAT is the key to this issue.

You say people should WANT to assimilate. How do you measure "want."

2nd question:
America has been assimilating immigrants for 230 years. What should we do different now that we haven't already been doing?

 

I think these are both kinda the same question. The answer is 'I have no idea.' Although this is really general, what I'd like to avoid is the balkanization of society that we're seeing in Europe - where the embracing of 'multiculturalism' has led to serious fizzures between groups. I'm a melting pot kinda guy, not a let's all have our own little enclave type. I know that's hardly a specific outline for action. However I think the first step is recognizing that we CAN have some presumptive burdens for a prospective immigrant. Its not racist or bad. Give us your tired, your poor, your hungry that WANT TO BE HERE.

 

I think people should want to assimilate. But exactly is the dominant culture that they will be assimilating to? The U.S. culture is varied from place to place, and piece-meal from other cultures anyway.

I think for the melting pot theory to work, whoever is already here needs to do some melting and blending in with new aspects that other cultures bring. I think it should happen organically, and in order to do that, folks need to be open to change(both long time residents and new arrivals), folks need to be willing to make an effort to understand different perspectives and not approach it with a 'MY way is better' attitude(both long time residents and new arrivals.) People should be allowed to preserve any part of their original culture that they want as long as they understand others may have and partake in something totally different.

All of that is easier said than done, and may be near impossible to put into perfect practice, but the closer we get to that the better off we will be, and something practical, and beneficial to us all may come of it.

 

I can think of a lot of aspects of other cultures I don't want to see here: female genital mutilation, polygamy, unequal rights based on gender codified into law.... I think the melting pot has worked so well in every wave of immigration except Africans precisely because there was an attitude that they wanted to be here and wanted to become Americans. That doesn't mean abandoning your native culture but it does mean fitting it into our overall community.

 

The melting pot has always been a bad analogy. America is really more of a stew not a fondue. There is some melting on the edges but the lumps that go into it still retain a lot of their original form. To people say that immigrants have to assimilate I think its a fair question "assimilate to what?" Is speaking English, shopping at malls, watching American Idol and eating at Mc Donalds assimilating? People in Singapore do that already.

America has always been a synthetic culture made of bits of other culture so I don't think there's anything wrong with immigrants clinging to their own culture because it will only add to the US culture as a whole.

 

Multiculturalism isn't the same thing as Balkanization. The country isn't in danger of individual states declaring that there's only room for one race and religion in their borders, pursuing self-determination and seceding to become totally separate entities. Even if they did, come on, the US would DESTROY the Dakotas.

I actually took a class on Asian American communities a while back, and we addressed the enclave issue, when immigrants come in and only hang out with their ethnicity. The thing with enclaves is that they start to have serious problems as soon as the second generation comes of age, because the children identify themselves as being American, and don't want to be shoehorned into the same roles that their parents are in. I see this all the time, with kids whose immigrant parents operate a business. The parents expect them to carry on the family tradition, and they want to live their own lives as American citizens, which is their right. Typically they run off to pursue singing careers.

But anyway, there's historical evidence for this sort of thing - remember the internment camps during WWII? The Nisei (second generation Japanese-Americans) formed the 442nd "Go For Broke" and became one of the most decorated units on the European front, even though their families were locked up by the government for being Japanese immigrants.

America is an amazing place to live because despite our history of huge missteps with racism and prejudice, we give anyone and everyone the opportunity to become part of us. There's room for all people, and that fact shouldn't ever change.

 

What do you mean by that? I know many African immigrants who are adapting to life in the US. Are you talking about African-Americans who are descended from slaves? Have you consider that that was the only group of immigrants who came here not by their own choice and were also held in bondage in Western Hemisphere for more than 300 years.

 

That's exactly what I'm talking about - I referred to 'waves' of immigration. Being forced here meant arriving here without the same 'wanting to be here' the other waves did.

No one said they were the same thing. However its not impossible that one leads to another.