As if to prove the poster's point, the whiners have already started to whine about other people's whine.
Isiah Thomas won 2 NBA championships as a player, turns out that means jack for coaching (or being a GM as he is proving now). As a simple starter, how about making the playoffs. In his first 8 seasons as an NBA head coach, JVG made the playoffs 7 times, and the one season he did not make the playoffs, he left the team with a .562 winning percentage, which would have been good for 6th in the Eastern Conference. In Larry Brown's first 8 seasons as an NBA head coach, he went to the playoffs 6 times, he also had one season where he left the team before the season ended (with a .528 winning percentage), but his other season was a full season with the Spurs, in which his team failed to make the playoffs, going 21-61 for a dismal .256 winning percentage. Advantage van Gundy. How about Finals appearances, since neither actually won a championship iun their first 9 seasons. Van Gundy went in 1999, losing to the San Antonio Spurs. Brown never made it to the NBA finals, he went to the conference finals once and lost to the Sonics in 1978 with the Nuggets. Advantage Van Gundy. Worst regular season in that span? JVG had a .524 team in 1998. Brown had the previously mentioned .256 Spurs. Advantage Van Gundy. Best regular season: JVG had the Knicks at a .695 clip in '97, Brown took the Spurs to a .683 record in 1990. Advantage Van Gundy. Overall winning percentage: JVG combined with the Knicks and Rockets to have a winning percentage of .590. Brown led the Nuggets, Nets, and Spurs to a combined .562. Advantage Van Gundy. Winning seasons (seasons over .500) 8 for Van Gundy, 7 for Brown. Advantage Van Gundy. There are 6 measures of the first 8 seasons of their NBA head coaching careers and JVG was better in every comparison. Larry Brown has gone on to have tremendous success, including a championship with the Pistons. Since JVG has had such a promising start, can we not give him the chance to have an equally brilliant career? I see no reason why JVG cannot go on to be a championship coach, given that his career began in such a similar, though slightly better way in comparison to Brown's.
It is true that a championship player turns coach wouldnt guarantee the player becomes a championship coach. But it is always good to have the championship experience on a coach's resume so the coach could have deep understandings of how to prepare and motivate his players to achieve the pinnacle. There are some successful examples of championship players become excellent coaches: Phil Jackson, Larry Bird & Rick Carlisle. Larry Brown won championships as a player, a NCAA coach and NBA coach. There is no parallel between Larry Brown and JVG. Hhmmm..... You use regular season wins % to define a good coach. I always use playoff wins % and championships to define a good coach. To compare two coaches year by year and argue who is a better coach is over-simplification. Why didnt you mention that Larry Brown had won the NCAA championship before he joined the NBA? Yes, JVG has a better regular season wins %. The fact is JVG bascially inherited a very good team the Knicks from his mentor Pat Riley and JVG has never been involved in any rebuilding project. While Larry Brown is a well-known nomad that likes to jump between teams and take up challenges of rebuilding projects. Certainly, the jumpings between teams and takings on rebuilding projects have hurted his regular season wins %. But how about the playoff wins %? No matter how many bad teams Larry Brown has taken, his career playoff wins % is .529 vs JVG's .506. I know you may argue that Larry Brown got lucky coaching the Pistons for 2 seasons and bumped up his playoff wins %. But just think about when the coaching position of the Pistons was available, JVG didnt even get a call for an interview. Joe Dumars had only one choice and its Larry Brown. When the Pistons visited the Rockets in this early season, a reporter asked Joe Dumars about JVG's offense and Joe Dumars replied, "Simple stuff. It's predictable.". JVG is well-known of predictable offense, half-full defense (no perimeter defense) and lack of visions and flexibilties. Many fans have already figured JVG out. With JVG as the Rockets' head coach, many fans really dont think the Rockets will go very far in the playoff. - MiddleEarth
great post middle earth and I think the key is how larry brown has improved teams. JVG took over a rockets team that won 44 games the year before he took over, and they won exactly one more game with a yao that had been through the league. larry brown took over a mediocre philly team and got them to the finals, he made allen iverson an mvp. he took a detroit team and got them over the hump to a championship. anyone who tries to pass jvg's success with the knicks as proof of his coaching prowess is joking themselves. I'm not a jvg basher but he has neither proven himself to be bad or great, just average. he has one finals appearance in a strike shortened 50 game season. the rockets were up what, 2-0 on dallas going home and choked. everyone on this site forgets that.
I was comparing their first 8 seasons as NBA head coaches, so why would I mention Brown winning an NCAA championship? Were I discussing Rick Patino as an NBA head coach, I don't think his college coaching would be very relevent. Coaching in college and coaching in the NBA are very different, if you don't believe me ask Bob Knight. He says he would never coach in the NBA. Okay, in their first 8 seasons as NBA head coaches, JVG had a playoff win% of .507, while Brown had a playoff win percentage of .429. Advantage Van Gundy. I don't deny that over the course of his 22 NBA seasons spanning nearly 30 years that Larry Brown has had more success than JVG, but at the same point in their careers, JVG had more success, so it is not right to say that JVG won't win a championship, is not a championship caliber coach, etc. and then to give Larry Brown as an example of someone who is. Maybe once JVG has 22 seasons under his belt he will won MORE than 1 title.
OK I get your point. Because JVG's first 8 seasons were better than LB's, so in 22 seasons he'll win more titles than LB. Regardless how 'logical' this point is, let me just ask a question: you expect JVG to sit here for 10 more years and win a title for Huston with the NEXT TMAC and Yao?
I really cant agree with your conclusion that JVG is a better coach than Larry Brown at the same point of their careers by using the year by year comparisons. There is no fairness and logic behind the way you come to your conclusion. You simply ignore the fact what team they got. The Knicks' average regular season wins % was .68 and its average playoff season wins % was .551 during the Pat Riley era (91-94). Did JVG improve the Knicks? The answer is no. JVG did a fair job for the Knicks but he didnt bring any improvement. Is JVG a championship calibre coach? This is up to everybody's guess. For myself, JVG is an apprentice became coach who has learned a few tricks in Pat Riley's magic bag. Besides that, JVG cant pull out any trick in the air. - MiddleEarth
JVG needs to work with what he's got a little better than he does. I feel he can not utilize talent for crap. Also, JVG's offense is abysmal. The Spurs have defense and all that, but if you didn't notice, they also have a f*cking efficient offensive game plan. You need both to win, simple as that. Definitely defense is a little more important, but if you try it JVG way, you don't go anywhere. He's like half of Popovich. Oh well, other than that, JVG's pretty cool.
By the same token, Brown's Spurs didn't improve in his first year there, but made a big improvement in his second year, which happened to coincide with the arrival of David Robinson (who because of his Navy obligations came into the NBA in his prime). So, did Brown improve that team, or did Robinson. Likewise, the Nets turnaround came with an almost entirely new roster (only one player was in the top 6 on the team in scoring between the two seasons). So, should Larry brown get credit for those turnarounds, but JVG not for his success with the Knicks. I just think it is rediculous to assume that JVG is not capable of winning a title, just because he has not accomplished in 8 years what Brown has in 22, especially when he did similar or more than Larry did in his first 8 years. The problem is he hasn't had squat to work with this season because of injuries. When the team was healthy, or even just mostly healthy (we never had Sura, for instance) JVG did a fine job. Last season he got 50 wins and took Dallas to 7 games in the playoffs, despite having to start Ryan Bowen at PF. His offense also looked great last year when he had a whole team to implement it. It really isn't fair to judge the guy based on the performances of players that wouldn't even be playing without the injuries.
If I use your crappy logic of year by year comparisons of wins % to compare JVG with Rick Adelman for the first eight years of their careers, I could conclude that Rick Adelman is a better coach. Has Rick Adelman won anything yet? No. Since Rick Adelman hasnt won any championship (he's in his 16th season), it is safe for me to use your crappy logic to say JVG wont win any championship before JVG's 17th season. So, how old will Yao and T-Mac be by that time? I have no problem of you to say JVG is God or whatever. But please dont use crappy logic to claim: "just because he has not accomplished in 8 years what Brown has in 22, especially when he did similar or more than Larry did in his first 8 years.". It's unbearable. Also, many fans dont assume JVG is not a championship calibre coach. Its the judgment of JVG from many fans' knowledge and experience. You can disagree and I repect that. It's like a stock market crash, some people see it coming, some dont. What can you say?
Man, I'm disspointed. This thread goes 5 pages and strong, yet no one tells me what is the true color of fans. Is it red? yellow? blue? I'll say blue though, right now, we are blue.
Rick Adelman is also a great coach. He took Portland to the NBA finals and the Kings likely should have beaten the Lakers but they were screwed by the officials in game 6. His philosophy is based much more on offense, so he has more of a shot at regular season success (see Mike D'Antoni, Don Nelson) than postseason success, but I don't think the Kings should get rid of Adelman any more than the Rockets should get rid of JVG.
Jumping around the topic? I haven't seen you answer this question from MiddelEarth which is also what I'm wondering about: "Since Rick Adelman hasnt won any championship (he's in his 16th season), it is safe for me to use your crappy logic to say JVG wont win any championship before JVG's 17th season. So, how old will Yao and T-Mac be by that time?"
I don't imagine there is any particular timetable for when he will or won't win a title. Larry Brown won a title in his 21st NBA season. A lot of factors go into winning a title. I would say that Larry Brown, JVG, and Rick Adelman are all capable of coaching a team to a title in any season (though as I said, Adelman's offensive focus has been historically less successful in the postseason). That may mean that neither Adelman nor JVG ever win a title, but I do think they are both CAPABLE of winning a title, given a championship quality team, as Larry Brown had with Detroit.
There is beauty in that post.... humor, truth, sadness... all disguised as meaningless. I like your style.
