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Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Mar 17, 2006.

  1. basso

    basso Member
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    Indeed.

    --
    "President Bush sketched an expansive vision last night of what he expects to accomplish by a war in Iraq. Instead of focusing on eliminating weapons of mass destruction, or reducing the threat of terror to the United States, Mr. Bush talked about establishing a 'free and peaceful Iraq' that would serve as a 'dramatic and inspiring example' to the entire Arab and Muslim world, provide a stabilizing influence in the Middle East and even help end the Arab-Israeli conflict."--editorial, New York Times, Feb. 27, 2003

    "One prominent neoconservative, Francis Fukuyama, asserts in a new book that the administration embraced democracy as a cornerstone of its policy only after the failure to find unconventional weapons in Iraq. The issue was seized upon to justify the war in retrospect, and then expanded for other countries, he says."--New York Times, March 17, 2006
     
  2. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Utterly meaningless... Bush and cohorts said a bunch of different things, but you cannot deny they sold the war by fear, not by some feel-good appeal to Democracy.

    From http://democrats.reform.house.gov/I...asp?start=20&Speaker=President+George+W.+Bush

    Quotes by Bush before and during February, 2003...

    I could go on... Those are just a few of the remarks made by the President before the war. I didn't even look at Cheney, Condi, Ari, Colin, etc.
     
  3. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

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    W :eek: W!!!

    so where's that speech this editorial is talking about??

    what's up with all this desperate posting? is this in line with bush's PR campaign to drum up support to defend Iraq war & invade Iran?
     
    #3 vlaurelio, Mar 17, 2006
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2006
  4. basso

    basso Member
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    I'm guessing this is it:

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030226-11.html

    --
    President Discusses the Future of Iraq
    Washington Hilton Hotel
    Washington, D.C.

    THE PRESIDENT: Thanks for the warm welcome. I'm proud to be with the scholars, and the friends, and the supporters of the American Enterprise Institute. I want to thank you for overlooking my dress code violation. (Laughter.) They were about to stop me at the door, but Irving Kristol said, "I know this guy, let him in." (Laughter.)

    President George W. Bush speaks at the American Enterprise Institute's annual dinner in Washington, D.C., Wednesday, Feb. 26, 2003. White House photo by Paul Morse Chris, thank you for your very kind introduction, and thank you for your leadership. I see many distinguished guests here tonight -- members of my Cabinet, members of Congress, Justice Scalia, Justice Thomas, and so many respected writers and policy experts. I'm always happy to see your Senior Fellow, Dr. Lynne Cheney. (Applause.) Lynne is a wise and thoughtful commentator on history and culture, and a dear friend to Laura and me. I'm also familiar with the good work of her husband -- (laughter.) You may remember him, the former director of my vice presidential search committee. (Laughter.) Thank God Dick Cheney said yes. (Applause.)

    Thanks for fitting me into the program tonight. I know I'm not the featured speaker. I'm just a warm-up act for Allan Meltzer. But I want to congratulate Dr. Meltzer for a lifetime of achievement, and for tonight's well-deserved honor. Congratulations. (Applause.)

    At the American Enterprise Institute, some of the finest minds in our nation are at work on some of the greatest challenges to our nation. You do such good work that my administration has borrowed 20 such minds. I want to thank them for their service, but I also want to remind people that for 60 years, AEI scholars have made vital contributions to our country and to our government, and we are grateful for those contributions.

    We meet here during a crucial period in the history of our nation, and of the civilized world. Part of that history was written by others; the rest will be written by us. (Applause.) On a September morning, threats that had gathered for years, in secret and far away, led to murder in our country on a massive scale. As a result, we must look at security in a new way, because our country is a battlefield in the first war of the 21st century.

    We learned a lesson: The dangers of our time must be confronted actively and forcefully, before we see them again in our skies and in our cities. And we set a goal: we will not allow the triumph of hatred and violence in the affairs of men. (Applause.)

    Our coalition of more than 90 countries is pursuing the networks of terror with every tool of law enforcement and with military power. We have arrested, or otherwise dealt with, many key commanders of al Qaeda. (Applause.) Across the world, we are hunting down the killers one by one. We are winning. And we're showing them the definition of American justice. (Applause.) And we are opposing the greatest danger in the war on terror: outlaw regimes arming with weapons of mass destruction.

    In Iraq, a dictator is building and hiding weapons that could enable him to dominate the Middle East and intimidate the civilized world -- and we will not allow it. (Applause.) This same tyrant has close ties to terrorist organizations, and could supply them with the terrible means to strike this country -- and America will not permit it. The danger posed by Saddam Hussein and his weapons cannot be ignored or wished away. The danger must be confronted. We hope that the Iraqi regime will meet the demands of the United Nations and disarm, fully and peacefully. If it does not, we are prepared to disarm Iraq by force. Either way, this danger will be removed. (Applause.)

    The safety of the American people depends on ending this direct and growing threat. Acting against the danger will also contribute greatly to the long-term safety and stability of our world. The current Iraqi regime has shown the power of tyranny to spread discord and violence in the Middle East. A liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform that vital region, by bringing hope and progress into the lives of millions. America's interests in security, and America's belief in liberty, both lead in the same direction: to a free and peaceful Iraq. (Applause.)

    The first to benefit from a free Iraq would be the Iraqi people, themselves. Today they live in scarcity and fear, under a dictator who has brought them nothing but war, and misery, and torture. Their lives and their freedom matter little to Saddam Hussein -- but Iraqi lives and freedom matter greatly to us. (Applause.)

    Bringing stability and unity to a free Iraq will not be easy. Yet that is no excuse to leave the Iraqi regime's torture chambers and poison labs in operation. Any future the Iraqi people choose for themselves will be better than the nightmare world that Saddam Hussein has chosen for them. (Applause.)

    If we must use force, the United States and our coalition stand ready to help the citizens of a liberated Iraq. We will deliver medicine to the sick, and we are now moving into place nearly 3 million emergency rations to feed the hungry.

    We'll make sure that Iraq's 55,000 food distribution sites, operating under the Oil For Food program, are stocked and open as soon as possible. The United States and Great Britain are providing tens of millions of dollars to the U.N. High Commission on Refugees, and to such groups as the World Food Program and UNICEF, to provide emergency aid to the Iraqi people.

    We will also lead in carrying out the urgent and dangerous work of destroying chemical and biological weapons. We will provide security against those who try to spread chaos, or settle scores, or threaten the territorial integrity of Iraq. We will seek to protect Iraq's natural resources from sabotage by a dying regime, and ensure those resources are used for the benefit of the owners -- the Iraqi people. (Applause.)

    The United States has no intention of determining the precise form of Iraq's new government. That choice belongs to the Iraqi people. Yet, we will ensure that one brutal dictator is not replaced by another. All Iraqis must have a voice in the new government, and all citizens must have their rights protected. (Applause.)

    Rebuilding Iraq will require a sustained commitment from many nations, including our own: we will remain in Iraq as long as necessary, and not a day more. America has made and kept this kind of commitment before -- in the peace that followed a world war. After defeating enemies, we did not leave behind occupying armies, we left constitutions and parliaments. We established an atmosphere of safety, in which responsible, reform-minded local leaders could build lasting institutions of freedom. In societies that once bred fascism and militarism, liberty found a permanent home.

    There was a time when many said that the cultures of Japan and Germany were incapable of sustaining democratic values. Well, they were wrong. Some say the same of Iraq today. They are mistaken. (Applause.) The nation of Iraq -- with its proud heritage, abundant resources and skilled and educated people -- is fully capable of moving toward democracy and living in freedom. (Applause.)

    The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life. And there are hopeful signs of a desire for freedom in the Middle East. Arab intellectuals have called on Arab governments to address the "freedom gap" so their peoples can fully share in the progress of our times. Leaders in the region speak of a new Arab charter that champions internal reform, greater politics participation, economic openness, and free trade. And from Morocco to Bahrain and beyond, nations are taking genuine steps toward politics reform. A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region. (Applause.)

    It is presumptuous and insulting to suggest that a whole region of the world -- or the one-fifth of humanity that is Muslim -- is somehow untouched by the most basic aspirations of life. Human cultures can be vastly different. Yet the human heart desires the same good things, everywhere on Earth. In our desire to be safe from brutal and bullying oppression, human beings are the same. In our desire to care for our children and give them a better life, we are the same. For these fundamental reasons, freedom and democracy will always and everywhere have greater appeal than the slogans of hatred and the tactics of terror. (Applause.)

    Success in Iraq could also begin a new stage for Middle Eastern peace, and set in motion progress towards a truly democratic Palestinian state. (Applause.) The passing of Saddam Hussein's regime will deprive terrorist networks of a wealthy patron that pays for terrorist training, and offers rewards to families of suicide bombers. And other regimes will be given a clear warning that support for terror will not be tolerated. (Applause.)

    Without this outside support for terrorism, Palestinians who are working for reform and long for democracy will be in a better position to choose new leaders. (Applause.) True leaders who strive for peace; true leaders who faithfully serve the people. A Palestinian state must be a reformed and peaceful state that abandons forever the use of terror. (Applause.)

    For its part, the new government of Israel -- as the terror threat is removed and security improves -- will be expected to support the creation of a viable Palestinian state -- (applause) -- and to work as quickly as possible toward a final status agreement. As progress is made toward peace, settlement activity in the occupied territories must end. (Applause.) And the Arab states will be expected to meet their responsibilities to oppose terrorism, to support the emergence of a peaceful and democratic Palestine, and state clearly they will live in peace with Israel. (Applause.)

    The United States and other nations are working on a road map for peace. We are setting out the necessary conditions for progress toward the goal of two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security. It is the commitment of our government -- and my personal commitment -- to implement the road map and to reach that goal. Old patterns of conflict in the Middle East can be broken, if all concerned will let go of bitterness, hatred, and violence, and get on with the serious work of economic development, and political reform, and reconciliation. America will seize every opportunity in pursuit of peace. And the end of the present regime in Iraq would create such an opportunity. (Applause.)

    In confronting Iraq, the United States is also showing our commitment to effective international institutions. We are a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council. We helped to create the Security Council. We believe in the Security Council -- so much that we want its words to have meaning. (Applause.)

    The global threat of proliferation of weapons of mass destruction cannot be confronted by one nation alone. The world needs today and will need tomorrow international bodies with the authority and the will to stop the spread of terror and chemical and biological and nuclear weapons. A threat to all must be answered by all. High-minded pronouncements against proliferation mean little unless the strongest nations are willing to stand behind them -- and use force if necessary. After all, the United Nations was created, as Winston Churchill said, to "make sure that the force of right will, in the ultimate issue, be protected by the right of force."

    Another resolution is now before the Security Council. If the council responds to Iraq's defiance with more excuses and delays, if all its authority proves to be empty, the United Nations will be severely weakened as a source of stability and order. If the members rise to this moment, then the Council will fulfill its founding purpose.

    I've listened carefully, as people and leaders around the world have made known their desire for peace. All of us want peace. The threat to peace does not come from those who seek to enforce the just demands of the civilized world; the threat to peace comes from those who flout those demands. If we have to act, we will act to restrain the violent, and defend the cause of peace. And by acting, we will signal to outlaw regimes that in this new century, the boundaries of civilized behavior will be respected. (Applause.)

    Protecting those boundaries carries a cost. If war is forced upon us by Iraq's refusal to disarm, we will meet an enemy who hides his military forces behind civilians, who has terrible weapons, who is capable of any crime. The dangers are real, as our soldiers, and sailors, airmen, and Marines fully understand. Yet, no military has ever been better prepared to meet these challenges.

    Members of our Armed Forces also understand why they may be called to fight. They know that retreat before a dictator guarantees even greater sacrifices in the future. They know that America's cause is right and just: liberty for an oppressed people, and security for the American people. And I know something about these men and women who wear our uniform: they will complete every mission they are given with skill, and honor, and courage. (Applause.)

    Much is asked of America in this year 2003. The work ahead is demanding. It will be difficult to help freedom take hold in a country that has known three decades of dictatorship, secret police, internal divisions, and war. It will be difficult to cultivate liberty and peace in the Middle East, after so many generations of strife. Yet, the security of our nation and the hope of millions depend on us, and Americans do not turn away from duties because they are hard. We have met great tests in other times, and we will meet the tests of our time. (Applause.)

    We go forward with confidence, because we trust in the power of human freedom to change lives and nations. By the resolve and purpose of America, and of our friends and allies, we will make this an age of progress and liberty. Free people will set the course of history, and free people will keep the peace of the world.

    Thank you all, very much. (Applause.)
     
  5. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy

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    [​IMG]
     
  6. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

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    was bush and WH consistently and actively pushing this to congree and american public as justification for the war? or is this just a one-time speech customized for his specific audience that night?
     
  7. basso

    basso Member
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    clearly, and just like the nytimes, you only paid attention some of the time. go all the way back to his speech before the UN in september 2002. it's a consistent part of his message. no, it wasn't the only part. but neither were WMD.
     
  8. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    You should at least know who you're slamming bassmaster - it's the Times recounting what Francis Fukuyama argues - so he's the alleged revisionist.
     
  9. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

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    I asked about if this was the consistent message to congress and american public.. not UN..
     
  10. basso

    basso Member
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    it's basso-master, but that's not important- have you never used fukuyama's arguement as a club w/ which to beat the admin? indeed, it's rather disingenuous of the times to cite fukuyama, but fail to mention all the times it has made the same arguement, it clear contradiction to it's own editorial of 3 years ago.
     
  11. Fatty FatBastard

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    Even I'll admit Bush isn't looking very good right now, although I was in FULL agreement with the recent airstrikes.

    We'll see how this current presidency plays out. As I've said before, this will either be one of the greatest accomplishments or one of the biggest blunders in history.

    I really do hope ALL Americans realize this. Which is why we cannot back down, or retreat.

    I also hope, regardless of which political side you're on, that you realize that our Country cannot be looked upon as pu**ys. The Middle East Combatants need to learn that in the New World Economy we will no longer tolerate this kind of insubordination.

    Much like in high school, a Unified front will always prevail. We can't have a bunch of high school teachers(re: U.N.) saying "but... He's got a right, also!"

    Yes he does, but in detention, so to speak.
     
  12. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    What the heck does the New World Economy have to do with what's going on in Iraq? If anything the invasion of Iraq was one of the most boneheaded things to do in an era of global trade. From the free trade standpoint it would've made more sense to trade with Saddam.
     
  13. Nolen

    Nolen Member

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    We've been through this before.

    The few times the administration mentioned anything other than scare tactics like nuclear mushrooms, bio weapons and other WMD, is far outweighed by the times they did. Period. End of story. Search up these singular soundbytes all you want, basso. The admin got support for this war on over-hyped, cherry-picked "evidence," and not on nation building.

    If the administration posed this war only as a war of nation building, as making the world a better place by deposing a dictator and starting the Domino Effect in the ME by placing a secular democracy there- there is NO WAY that they get support for that war.

    If the administration posed the war only as a war to eliminate a potential threat to the homeland, in a post 9/11 world, they get the support they need.

    The admin hyped, emphasized, and cherry picked whatever they needed to reach the end that they wanted- war with Iraq. End of story. Once it was over, and it was clear that there were no WMD, of course the admin had to shift focus onto nation-building; it's the only thing they could do to save face.

    Once upon a time, basso would often use the SOTU as proof that the admin used nation-building as an important part of selling the war. I then dedicated an entire evening doing a statistical analysis of the occurrences of words like "democracy", "WMD", etc, sentence by sentence in that SOTU... no response.
     
  14. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    Who authorized the war... the American people or the US Congress? :eek:
     
  15. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Technically no one since there wasn't an official war resolution passed.

    While Congress passed a resolution iauthorizing the President to use military force at his discretion in Iraq they never declared war on Saddam's regime, insurgents or Al Zaqari. IMO Congress really dropped the ball on this one by abrogating the decision to go to war to the President.
     
  16. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    I didn't say "declared" either. I said "authorized" and so did you, but that's not my point.

    You critics here act like the President could dupe the members of the US Congress by over-stating a few facts. If I were a member of that body, I'd kind of take offense but then it is more attractive just to blame the president for "lying."

    Then of course there is that long list of high profile Republicans and Democrats who had all affirmed in one way or another prior to January of 2003 that Saddam probably did have WMDs in sizable quantities.
     
  17. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    "Could?" He did. And it was more than "over-stating" a "few" facts. I posted articles that laid that out in no uncertain terms and not a single war supporter here sought to debunk or disagree with a single thing in those articles. For about three pages at least, a few of you took shots at me but not a single one of you argued with a single bit of evidence in those articles. So don't act like this is some hypothetical thing. It happened, you guys decided it wasn't a big deal and now you're back to your long-since discredited talking points that Congress had basically the same intel as Bush. They didn't and that is a proven fact. Want the link to the thread so that, more than a month later, you can finally start to argue the meat of the charges? No? Didn't think so.
     
  18. Kam

    Kam Member

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    awesome thread title.

    i had to click on it to see why everybodys panties would get twisted up their ass.
     
  19. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    I'd like to see the link. I don't remember it. I'm dying to see what you think constitutes proof...
     
  20. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    Oh, and I'm dying to see you apply your "depends on what the meaning of 'is' is" parsing skills to it. I mean, if you can turn "wetback" into a term of endearment, your powers are boundless. Anyway, here it is. Two pages, not three as I'd remembered:

    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=109651
     

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