Playstation Meeting later tonight/early tomorrow (PS3 info almost guaranteed)

RC Cola · Mar 16, 2006

KingCheetah said:

Serious financial publications not so optimistic about the PS3 delay...
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Funny, since I already posted some impressions from Forbes earlier, which seemed to be from a slightly more recent article than the one you posted:
http://www.forbes.com/2006/03/15/sony-playstation-gaming-cx_po_0315autofacescan01.html

Japanese traders, however, reacted mildly to news of the delay and sent Sony's stock down a mild 1.8% this morning. They'd probably been expecting all this. From Wall Street to online gaming forums, the rumor mill had long gone past "whether" the PS3 would be delayed, to "how long" we would have to wait. (See: "Will PS3 Be Delayed?")

Analysts have also taken a tempered view. More important than the timing of the launch, Goldman Sachs forecaster Yuji Fujimori told The Associated Press, is the success of the new machine when it goes on sale, including pricing and game software lineup. A delay alone wasn't enough to determine how the PlayStation 3 business would fare, others opined.
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KingCheetah said:

The reverberations continue to make waves across the market.

The Singulus spokesman says they are unaffected by Sony's troubles, but jittery investors yank their money on fears Blu-ray troubles may hinder the emerging market.

So Singulus, Sony's partner in Blu-Ray development takes huge stock hit...
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You sure are trying hard to find something negative. Try looking to see how Japanese retailers are reacting to the news, as well as maybe 3rd parties located in Japan that make accessories. Maybe their stocks have dropped too, as well as maybe the p*rn studios in Japan that were planning on releasing some HD p*rn on Blu-ray this summer.

BTW, still waiting for your explanation on why the PSInext article was "fanboy crap."

Svpernaut said:

and I certainly don' bash companies like Merryl Lynch who's job it is to know these things because you know what... they may just know more about it then me, a dude with a high speed net connection and 10-15 minutes to spare.
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So I take it you'll revise these comments (which you seemed sure of before):

Svpernaut said:

You can see it costing $500-600 to make? Are you drunk? The 360 premium costs more then that and it doesn't have a completely new technology slowing it down and raising the cost.
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You know, since...um...the 360 premium only costs about $340 to make according to Merrill Lynch (and that was like a month prior to launch, unlike these reports about the PS3). Although maybe this was another adding error that they failed to catch before publishing that report.

Rocket G said:

The Japanese are still very nationalistic, also.

It's not just about the games. There's a good reason Sony & Nintendo outsell MS in Japan, and it has a lot to do with where Microsoft is based.
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Perhaps, but until MS actually gets their stuff together over there, it will be hard to say exactly why they aren't buying MS consoles. I mean, would you be less likely to buy a system from Sony/Nintendo if they kept touting its ability to take advantage of "Hi-vision" TVs, and if the launch titles consisted of a soccer game, a fighting game based on some anime, a mech game, a 2D strategy RPG, and some non-game that tests your brain? They should at least get the name right to make it look like they're trying.

Svpernaut · Mar 16, 2006

RC Cola said:

Funny, since I already posted some impressions from Forbes earlier, which seemed to be from a slightly more recent article than the one you posted:
http://www.forbes.com/2006/03/15/sony-playstation-gaming-cx_po_0315autofacescan01.html

You sure are trying hard to find something negative. Try looking to see how Japanese retailers are reacting to the news, as well as maybe 3rd parties located in Japan that make accessories. Maybe their stocks have dropped too, as well as maybe the p*rn studios in Japan that were planning on releasing some HD p*rn on Blu-ray this summer.

BTW, still waiting for your explanation on why the PSInext article was "fanboy crap."

So I take it you'll revise these comments (which you seemed sure of before):

You know, since...um...the 360 premium only costs about $340 to make according to Merrill Lynch (and that was like a month prior to launch, unlike these reports about the PS3). Although maybe this was another adding error that they failed to catch before publishing that report.

Perhaps, but until MS actually gets their stuff together over there, it will be hard to say exactly why they aren't buying MS consoles. I mean, would you be less likely to buy a system from Sony/Nintendo if they kept touting its ability to take advantage of "Hi-vision" TVs, and if the launch titles consisted of a soccer game, a fighting game based on some anime, a mech game, a 2D strategy RPG, and some non-game that tests your brain? They should at least get the name right to make it look like they're trying.
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I love how you constantly take comments out of context from posts and replies on something completely different. I was putting it lightly that maybe a 19 year old kid doesn't know as much as he thinks he does... I mean you are the one here saying that your information from PSInext and other gaming sites prove your points while calling information from people like Forbes and Meryl Lynch wrong.

As I stated all the pages ago, neither one of us know what the hell is going on because none of us are in a position where we can get insider information. You seem to google and copy and paste random crap and think it makes you look liek you are "in the know" but you don't have any access to any information that we don't... and I am fairly certain that market analysts might just know what they are talking about.

The difference between you and I is I know the limitations of my knowledge. Any of us can take outside information from openly free sources and form an intelligent opinion but to even begin to think you know more then market analysts whose entire job is to know information on all aspects of the product is not only nieve, but silly. I know for a fact that no amount of googling and research with open sources is going to show that I have more knowledge then those people who watch it closely at Forbes, Meryl Lynch and the like... because I don't have the time or financial means they do to investigate it, and I certainly don't give a crap about something I have no vested interest in.

UTweezer · Mar 16, 2006

rc your hard on for sony is really geting old...

step away from the copy and paste function for awhile

SamFisher · Mar 16, 2006

Sorry RC - hate to do this to you, but:

hotballa · Mar 16, 2006

SamFisher said:

Sorry RC - hate to do this to you, but:

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HAHAHA. Thats just wrong Fishman

RC Cola · Mar 16, 2006

Svpernaut said:

I love how you constantly take comments out of context from posts and replies on something completely different.
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Perhaps, but my eyes light up when I see someone seemingly contradict themselves. Let's put it this way: do you think the ML analysis for the costs to make the 360 are accurate, or do you still think that it costs more than $500-$600? Simple question.

Svpernaut said:

I was putting it lightly that maybe a 19 year old kid doesn't know as much as he thinks he does... I mean you are the one here saying that your information from PSInext and other gaming sites prove your points while calling information from people like Forbes and Meryl Lynch wrong.
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Which sources have I said were wrong other than the ML report? I've used Forbes myself as a source, as well as CNN. As for the gaming sites, AFAIK, they follow this type of stuff pretty closely as well. In fact, I wonder who had the first updates about the PS3 Meeting: sites like IGN, Gamespot, 1UP, etc., or Forbes, CNN, etc?

How about this: since I have a problem with the ML report, I'll post my reasoning for why I don't trust it (might as well copy and paste the PSInext article again since I doubt any of you read it). For those of you that have a problem with my sources from Gamespot, Eurogamer, PSInext, etc., post your reasoning for why they aren't good sources (other than they're "fanboy crap" or just "gaming sites"). Fair enough?

Hmm, let me try something:
http://www.forbes.com

Merrill Lynch and myself have something in common: neither of us knows what the components inside the Playstation 3 will ultimately cost Sony to produce. That's probably where the similarities end however.

Merrill Lynch recently ventured a guess as to what these figures will be, and I feel their analysis so egregious as to demand some form of response. This article is not to venture an alternate guess to the figures presented per se, but rather to indicate the ways in which analysts in the video game industry come at their jobs half-assed and ill-prepared in terms of what's necessary to make an informed prediction. In this article, I will focus on Merrill's professionalism and methodology.

For those who have not yet read the analysis, it is available for viewing here: http://rsch1.ml.com/9093/24013/ds/276873_0.PDF

To begin, let us look at the professionalism aspect. If this were a report written up for a college class, there would be red ink all over it, and I have no doubt the 'college project' mentality was exactly the one behind this product. It contains a lack of consistency throughout in the manner in which the upcoming Playstation is referenced; Playstation 3, PlayStation 3, PS 3, and PS III all being used interchangeably to describe the system. PS III?

The report also touts repeatedly a $900 manufacturing figure in terms of costs, but on the actual bill of materials chart, the total comes out to $800. These mistakes are minor, but their ease of correction is what makes them all the more puzzling. For a report representing a major investment house, at the very minimum it shows off very poor editing skills and quality control. Professionalism aside though, by far the points I take most issue with are the weak technical arguments made.

Merrill asserts:

"...Sony's decision to implement an ambitious new processor architecture...has resulted in a processor we think will cost Sony at least $230 per unit initially. ...The die, at 235 square millimeters initially, is large, and Sony plans to manufacture it on a leading-edge 90nm process. Add to that the fact that the die is mostly logic, not memory arrays that can be easily repaired, and you've got a part that looks like it will be difficult and expensive to manufacture..."

Let's look at what we know.

In 1999 Sony began mass production of the PlayStation 2's EmotionEngine processor, on an - at the time - cutting edge 250nm fabrication process utilizing 200mm wafers. The die size of the chips produced was 240mm^2; larger than that of the Cell chip. Yields weren't all that great, and the chip was expensive.

In sharp contrast to that, Sony has taken several precautions this time around to make sure that the Cell chips going inside of PS3 control costs in ways that the EmotionEngine simply did not. Whereas Merrill asserts that today's process is a 'leading-edge' 90nm process, the fact is that 90nm SOI has been around for a while now, and Kutaragi has made specific past references to his use of 90nm for launch precisely because it is the conservative choice. The IBM-developed SOI process used for Cell production has been used for considerable time in IBM's Power chips as well as AMD's line of Athlon 64/Opteron processors, and Cell itself has been in production for over a year now on that same process. Indeed, IBM's confidence in Cell yields recently prompted Senior Vice President of IBM’s Systems & Technology Group to announce to a press conference a couple of weeks ago that "yield learning" with Cell has progressed "faster than on any chip we’ve done" to date.

And as if these differences alone weren't advantage enough over the EmotionEngine situation back with PlayStation 2, consider also that not only is Cell being produced on larger 300mm silicon wafers (again, better yields), but due to Kutaragi's decision to use Cell chips with only seven of the eight SPE's active, Sony is able to utilize a larger number of the Cell processors produced per wafer; some of which would otherwise have been rendered unsuitable due to die defects. In truth, as long as the PPE core is functional, I'm sure that all Cell chips are being saved to be put to use in future consumer electronics devices.

RSX should itself also come out to be less expensive than the original GraphicsSynthesizer was to fab. Even if RSX were to be 'something more' than an NVidia G70 chip shrunk down to 90nm, it would have to be something pretty extraordinary to compete with the mammoth 279mm^2 chip that comprised the original PS2's graphics processor. Add to this that Kutaragi has indicated RSX will feature 'redundancy' similar to Cell - likely in the form of a disabled pixel quad - and you have a chip whose yields should blow those of the original Playstation 2's GS chip out of the water.

For those interested, RSX will be fabbed on Sony's mature 90nm CMOS 4 process, presently used for the slimline Playstation 2's EE+GS@ 90nm chip and production of the primary PSP processors.

Now let's shift gears away from Cell and RSX for a moment, and look again at a particular quote.

"Add to that the fact that the die is mostly logic, not memory arrays that can be easily repaired, and you've got a part that looks like it will be difficult and expensive to manufacture."

I have to inform the reader here, that it is impossible to repair a microprocessor - it simply cannot be done. By 'memory arrays' Merrill is clearly referring (obtusely) to the cache of the PPE core, and/or the local memory of the SPE's. Indeed cache does incorporate a level of defect tolerance, but by no means are such defects able to be repaired, and the fact that the Merrill uses such language in their report indicates to me an analyst staff that on one level or another is ignorant of processor design. Of course, their analysis of the other difficulties facing Cell was enough to expose their lack of thoroughness in and of itself, but this quote referencing the repair of memory arrays comes off as particularly egregious.

Time to start wrapping things up - Blu-ray.

I think a lot of us can reflect and venture a guess that Blu-ray will likely be the single largest expense for the PS3 at the start of its life. At present there are very few makers of the actual components themselves; Sony and Nichia for the laser diodes, Philips for the optical pickup unit. But are we to believe a cost of $350 per drive for a read-only unit? I'm not sure that I would.

In April Samsung is set to introduce the SH-B022, a PC Blu-ray burner drive with a present estimated retail price of $500. It should be mentioned that in fact this unit has already made its way into reviewers hands, who have successfully tested the unit with Nero and burned a BD disc with it. Now, if one is aware of a consumer retail BD-writer coming on the market for $500 - knowing first generation technology like this will carry a significant markup on the retail end - can one not envision that a read-only drive sourced internally by one of the sole diode producers should likely cost less than the $350 estimate? I believe it stands to reason.

Eighty dollars worth of IO components? I'd be interested to see how they break down those numbers.

The fact is that the analysis is poorly researched, poorly written, and is overly bold in it's assertions. Merrill Lynch's estimates and methodology have been bad in the past - as is ironically typical of most game industry analysts - but this report is simply over the top in the way it's reverberated across the Internet.

This is not to say of course that I have numbers to put forth in place of these... but I think in the end that in itself is the point. I don't know the numbers, so I'm not writing about them. Merrill also doesn't know the numbers, uses flawed methodologies and logic to reach numbers, and then publishes analyst reports based on those numbers.

So here I am writing about that instead.
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Hey look, an article from Forbes. I don't even have to read it to know it is credible. It is from FORBES!

Unlike this one:
http://www.ps3portal.com/

Sony will put off the release of its much awaited PlayStation 3 machine until November from its planned spring debut because of delays in finalizing its next-generation disk technology, the company said Wednesday.

Ken Kutaragi, the head Sony's video game division, made the announcement at a hastily called news conference after reports of the delay surfaced in the business daily Nihon Keizai Shimbun and other papers.

The PlayStation 3 is critical for Sony Corp.'s profits and brand image, so a delay is seen as a major setback for the Japanese electronics and entertainment company as it struggles to mount a recovery after several years of poor earnings.

Reports of the delay sent Sony's stock tumbling 1.8 percent to 5,470 yen ($46) Wednesday. Kutaragi announced the decision after the close of trading on the Tokyo Stock Exchange.

Kutaragi said the company is still trying to finalize the copyright protection technology for the Blu-ray disc, the format for PlayStation 3 and next-generation video for the company's electronics gadgets in the works.

The new timeline means that the PlayStation 3 will still hit store shelves in Japan and North America in time for Christmas.

The PlayStation series is now the dominant brand for home consoles, helping support Sony's bottom line in recent years. Sony has shipped nearly 204 million PlayStation machines worldwide, when combining the original PlayStation and PlayStation 2.

But competition in next-generation game consoles is heating up with U.S. software maker Microsoft Corp. already putting the Xbox 360 on sale last year. Nintendo Co., the Japanese manufacture of Game Boy machines and Pokemon and Super Mario game software, is also planning its version called Revolution later this year.

The success of the new machine when it goes on sale, including pricing and game software lineup, will be more important than the timing of the sale, said Yuji Fujimori, an analyst with Goldman Sachs.

A delay was already factored into the share price, he said, because of growing speculation the PlayStation 3 may be delayed.

"The news brings some measure of assurance in that it indicates the PS3 will be ready for the year-end holiday season," Fujimori said in a report.

Any setback in the PlayStation business could deal a big blow to Sony at a time when it just announced in January it will post a profit of 70 billion yen ($592 million) for the fiscal year through March, instead of sinking into a 10 billion yen ($85 million) loss forecast earlier.

The loss would have been the company's first full-fiscal-year loss in more than a decade since plunging into the red in 1994 for losses related to its acquisition of Columbia Pictures.

Toshihiro Atae, head of sales at Fimat, a brokerage in the Societe Generale group, in Tokyo, said a delay alone isn't enough to determine how the PlayStation 3 business will fare.

"We don't really have a clear picture yet of how this is going to hit Sony's earnings," he told Dow Jones Newswires.

For decades, Sony symbolized Japan's manufacturing power exemplified in its Walkman portable. But in recent years, the company, which also has movie and music businesses, was battered by declining electronics prices. Sony also fell behind rivals in flat-panel TVs and music players that have been the main growth products in electronics.

Sony's core electronics division has lost money for two straight fiscal years. It's only been in recent months Sony has made somewhat of a comeback in flat-panel TVs using liquid crystal displays manufactured in a joint venture with South Korean rival Samsung Electronics Co.

Sony has also come out with Walkman MP3 digital music players to try to catch up with the hit iPod from Apple Computer Inc. Earlier, it had resisted catering products for the growing MP3 format because of concerns about copyright infringement.

Since Welsh-born Howard Stringer took over last year as the first foreigner to head the company, Sony has been trying to achieve a turnaround.

It has scrapped unprofitable operations such as Aibo entertainment robots, plasma display TVs and an expensive luxury audiovisual line offered in Japan called Qualia. It has also promised to trim 10,000 jobs, or nearly 7 percent of Sony's global work force, by March 2008.
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What?! A article from a PS3 fanboy site? I don't even need to bother reading it to know it is fanboy crap.

(that's the impression I'm getting here)

Svpernaut said:

As I stated all the pages ago, neither one of us know what the hell is going on because none of us are in a position where we can get insider information.
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Could have fooled me with all those statements you made about how much the 360 costs to make and how much more a BR player costs to make (among other things).

Svpernaut said:

You seem to google and copy and paste random crap and think it makes you look liek you are "in the know" but you don't have any access to any information that we don't... and I am fairly certain that market analysts might just know what they are talking about.
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Your right, I'm not "in the know" and I don't try to act like I am. You guys have access to the same information I have. However, judging by a lot of the comments in this thread, I'm one of the only ones who checks that info out. That kind of makes it sad since the info I'm using IS easy to find, yet apparently not many people read up on it, or else we wouldn't be talking about the ML report for the 100th time.

And market analysts may or may not know what they're talking about, at least according to this guy:

Sony's plans for the launch of PlayStation 3 are likely to be one of the biggest factors defining publisher and developer planning for 2006 - but in the absence of hard facts, it's essential to be wary of uninformed speculation, says Rob Fahey.

We'd like to express our sympathy to anyone reading this who is, as some of you probably are, in the unfortunate situation of having to make business decisions based around the launch of PlayStation 3 later this year. In the wake of Microsoft's Xbox 360 launch, with all its attendant supply problems (which are still afflicting retail even now), deciding how to treat a next-generation console launch from a publisher or developer perspective right now is a game not dissimilar to playing Snakes and Ladders. While blindfolded. In a room full of hyperactive monkeys.

The situation is hindered significantly by the fact that every pundit has a wildly different view on how Sony's PS3 launch is going to pan out. Typically, US analysts - who often favour the Xbox 360 to take a large chunk of the market in the next generation - seem to be downbeat on the prospects for PS3's early days, while Japanese analysts are generally more convinced by Sony's plans. Those in the Blu-Ray camp are convinced that PS3 will be a conquering hero, HD-DVD's supporters talk darkly about the console costing roughly the national GDP of Sweden to purchase and being shipped in numbers that you can count without having to use all your fingers and toes.

We have a great deal of respect for many analysts in the videogames sector, who have gone to great lengths to gain a deep understanding of the marketplace and its players, and who intelligently apply that knowledge and the insight they gain from countless conversations with industry players across the value chain to make rational and well-argued, if not always entirely accurate, predictions. The videogames industry analysts at Wedbush Morgan Securities and Banc of America Securities both spring to mind in this camp, and they are by no means alone.

However, some of the predictions flying forth this week from analysts have caused raised eyebrows, not least since they are so radically at odds with the message coming out of the industry. The most pessimistic prediction we've heard so far for PS3 comes from Pacific Crest Securities, which believes that PS3 will hit shelves in Japan in summer, then in November in the USA, in both cases with a million units at launch, with a European launch to follow in early 2007.

Under that model, there could be as few as 2.5 to 3 million units of the PS3 worldwide by the end of 2006 - leaving Sony with a huge margin to make up over Microsoft, which expects to have shipped 4.5 to 5.5 million units by this June, let alone next Christmas. If you were to take Pacific Crest's model to heart, you'd have to question whether PS3 was in for an even tougher launch period than Xbox 360 experienced in the run-up to Christmas - and even after such a forecast, the firm's analyst also suggests that manufacturing difficulties could push the console back even further.

That doesn't tie in with what we've heard from publishers in Europe, several of whom have told us that Sony seems adamant on the question of shipping in Europe within 2006 - with a slip to 2007 being avoided "at all costs". It also disagrees with comments from a senior executive at Pioneer, one of Sony's Blu-Ray partners, who claims to have heard that four to seven million PS3 units will ship this year - a rather more healthy figure, and one which suggests a far stronger Christmas than more pessimistic forecasts might suggest.

At the end of the day, much depends on both Blu-Ray and Cell. The former may, to some extent, determine the price point of PS3 - although we're sceptical of claims that a drive targeted at consumers is really going to push the cost of the console up by the hundreds of dollars some commentators seem to believe. The latter will almost certainly determine the shipment figures, with yields from IBM and Sony's plants of this complex chip defining in a very absolute way how many PS3s can be sold.

And ultimately, those two factors are still unknown quantities - about which no analyst really knows any more than any well-informed person in the industry does. Blu-Ray may drive costs up; Cell may drive shipments down; we simply don't know, and won't know for sure until either of those eventualities actually becomes real - or not, as the case may be. Under the circumstances, there's little hard information out there to help the unfortunate people who need to make decisions now about how to handle the PS3 launch - and on a topic like this, it's important to bear in mind, when reading analyst reports or comments from third parties, that your guess probably actually is just as good as theirs.

Source
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He makes several good points. I mean, we have Merrill Lynch saying the 360 costs $340 to make, and then we have iSuppli saying it will lose $126 per console. They can't both be right. Heck, even the Atari CEO (not an analyst, but should probably know as much as one if not more) overestimated the PSP's price by quite a bit, expecting it to be priced at $500. So as long as you are "well-informed" about the industry, you probably know as much as these analysts; if you can add and do basic math correctly, you're probably in the top 5 or so.

Svpernaut said:

The difference between you and I is I know the limitations of my knowledge. Any of us can take outside information from openly free sources and form an intelligent opinion but to even begin to think you know more then market analysts whose entire job is to know information on all aspects of the product is not only nieve, but silly. I know for a fact that no amount of googling and research with open sources is going to show that I have more knowledge then those people who watch it closely at Forbes, Meryl Lynch and the like... because I don't have the time or financial means they do to investigate it, and I certainly don't give a crap about something I have no vested interest in.
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You know, at first I thought the analysts would have to know more than me too; however, after some of the reports from ML, I begin to wonder. It isn't even like I'm the only one. Check out some of the forum links I gave earlier that were about the ML PS3 report; you'll find many people that have nothing more than these "openly free sources" (well, except for the developers and other "insiders" on the boards), yet they act as though they know more than the analyst(s). And unlike the analysts, they can usually back up their statements rather well, rather than just saying something will be expensive.

SamFisher said:

http://i2.tinypic.com/rk287t.jpg
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Cool. Now I'm photoshop material. Maybe I can reach YoYao's status sometime.

BTW, what ever happen to pointing out the "spinning" that I did for Sony? You sure gave up early, although maybe you needed time to work on that picture.

SamFisher · Mar 16, 2006

RC Cola said:

BTW, what ever happen to pointing out the "spinning" that I did for Sony? You sure gave up early, although maybe you needed time to work on that picture.
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Well I gave up because I don't really care that much - but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that you tend to pitch things through Sony -colored glasses. Either that's true or it's a coincidence that your opinion and whatever sony's up to tend to align far more often that not.

Oh, and it was MSPaint, not photoshop - long live MS ha ha ha!

RC Cola · Mar 16, 2006

SamFisher said:

Well I gave up because I don't really care that much - but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that you tend to pitch things through Sony -colored glasses. Either that's true or it's a coincidence that your opinion and whatever sony's up to tend to align far more often that not.
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FWIW, I don't think it would be much of an exaggeration to say that your posts tend to be anti-Sony/pro-MS, which would explain why you think I'm looking through Sony-colored glasses (and yet, "don’t care that much" about pointing out when I do that). See, I can this play this game too.

Besides, would it be that strange if I tended to approve of Sony's decisions given that they have dominated the industry for 10+ years? They didn't do that by making many mistakes. It isn't like you'll see me going "Hmm...a XBL-like service that allows for free online play...that's a terrible idea. What?! PS1 downloads for the PSP? That combined with the price drop isn't going to help them at all." Although FWIW, I've already shown my displeasure over their plan to do a global launch, especially if they only have 6M available until March (if that number is even attainable). If that was a statement I made with my Sony-colored glasses on, I'd like to see how I'd look at it with them off.

This discussion has probably gone on way too long with little to nothing gained. I'm done with it, and unless someone wants to discuss some of the other topics mentioned earlier, I'm going to do my best to avoid posting again in this thread.

Of course, we'll probably just pick this back up next week with GDC. I'm sure I'll be accused of spinning for Sony then too, although again, no one will "care" enough to explain how.

SamFisher · Mar 16, 2006

RC Cola said:

FWIW, I don't think it would be much of an exaggeration to say that your posts tend to be anti-Sony/pro-MS, which would explain why you think I'm looking through Sony-colored glasses (and yet, "don’t care that much" about pointing out when I do that). See, I can this play this game too.

Besides, would it be that strange if I tended to approve of Sony's decisions given that they have dominated the industry for 10+ years? They didn't do that by making many mistakes. It isn't like you'll see me going "Hmm...a XBL-like service that allows for free online play...that's a terrible idea. What?! PS1 downloads for the PSP? That combined with the price drop isn't going to help them at all." Although FWIW, I've already shown my displeasure over their plan to do a global launch, especially if they only have 6M available until March (if that number is even attainable). If that was a statement I made with my Sony-colored glasses on, I'd like to see how I'd look at it with them off.

This discussion has probably gone on way too long with little to nothing gained. I'm done with it, and unless someone wants to discuss some of the other topics mentioned earlier, I'm going to do my best to avoid posting again in this thread.

Of course, we'll probably just pick this back up next week with GDC. I'm sure I'll be accused of spinning for Sony then too, although again, no one will "care" enough to explain how.
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Yeah I probably did seem pro MS and anti-sony and I have no problme admitting that - primarily because my PS2 sat in my closet gathering dust after I got an xbox even though I used to think sony was the bomb - but the fact is I thought the PS2 was a disappointment compared tot he hype it got, and thought the xbox delivered more of what I wanted. Again, I have zero problem admitting that that could color my judgment - and don't really care if it does. It's just freaking video games - they're for fun, not to argue about. Arguing about sports on the internet is weighty discussion by comparison.

hotballa · Mar 16, 2006

SamFisher said:

Yeah I probably did seem pro MS and anti-sony and I have no problme admitting that - primarily because my PS2 sat in my closet gathering dust after I got an xbox even though I used to think sony was the bomb - but the fact is I thought the PS2 was a disappointment compared tot he hype it got, and thought the xbox delivered more of what I wanted. Again, I have zero problem admitting that that could color my judgment - and don't really care if it does. It's just freaking video games - they're for fun, not to argue about. Arguing about sports on the internet is weighty discussion by comparison.
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I totally agree with Sam on this one. I was one of the very first to get a PS and PS2. But it's been gathering dust in my closet as well. The only reason I ever bring it out is for Madden because I like the PS2 controller better for the game.

KingCheetah · Mar 16, 2006

SamFisher said:

Sorry RC - hate to do this to you, but:

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Hee hee ~ well done SF.

Oski2005 · Mar 17, 2006

Svpernaut said:

I wish more Americans thought that way... then we wouldn't have our major car manufacturers cutting hundreds of thousands of jobs :-(
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Well, if you are talking about cars, I think Toyota and Honda are the most popular foreign cars and they both have manufacturing plants in the US.

Davidoff · Mar 17, 2006

Some of you need to get off RCs nuts .. So what if he has Sony tendencies.. he's the only one on here that posts video game stuff on a consistent basis that I'm sure all of us who have posted in this thread like to read..

He doesn’t just post Sony stuff either, when 360 was launching he talked about how and where some of the better places to get a 360 were.. IMO the guy knows more about video games then most of us in this thread (Dakota wins IMO)

I'm just tired of seeing him get picked on by guys that obviously have some axe to grind with Sony (Hey Sam where did you come up with your username?) yet TRY to back it up with the "I have a PS1 or PS2 so I'm allowed to say things like this" attitude then take it out on him for being a "fan boy" .. If RC is more partial to Sony so what.. GET OVER IT!! At least he gives us video game fans something to read during the day without having to dig it up to find it..

Svpernaut · Mar 17, 2006

Da-Glyde said:

I'm just tired of seeing him get picked on by guys that obviously have some axe to grind with Sony (Hey Sam where did you come up with your username?) yet TRY to back it up with the "I have a PS1 or PS2 so I'm allowed to say things like this" attitude then take it out on him for being a "fan boy" .. If RC is more partial to Sony so what.. GET OVER IT!! At least he gives us video game fans something to read during the day without having to dig it up to find it..
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It has absolutely nothing to do with him being a Sony fanboy because I could care less... it is the fact that we all find it amusing that he thinks he knows more then anyone else here about an industry he isn't even involved in. I could sit here and copy and paste and critique his very move easily showing his idiocy at times... but I don't have to, his actions here speak for themselves. I have a real life, a career and these things called "lady friends" and me trying to prove a kid wrong over the internet isn't exactly at the top of my to-do list. I post on these forums discussing games and other useless topics to simply make my work day go by faster... not to show my überness in the video game world.

I appreciate RC's game threads because I am a gamer, and he does go and get information that I don't have the time to look for... but what I don't appreciate is his constant badgering if you don't agree with him or don't spell "Blu-Ray" right... his "You don't know what you are talking about see these 27 completely unreleated sources that I googled and/or found while I was sitting at home alone" get extremely tiresome. The bottom line this is a basketball forum where people happen to discuss other topic, if he wants to critique everything video game post here demanding "sources" and proof of what they say then I don't think this forum is for him... He brings this "bashing" on himself and IMMEDIATELY gets defensive when someone says something he doesn't like about his blessed video games.

Svpernaut · Mar 17, 2006

Oski2005 said:

Well, if you are talking about cars, I think Toyota and Honda are the most popular foreign cars and they both have manufacturing plants in the US.
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Simply because they have factories here doesn't mean that is a great thing... American auto-makers have factories here and their corporations are based here which keeps the vast majority of their revenue within our borders. If more Americans bought American we wouldn't have the huge trade deficit we do... most other countries in the world pride themselves on buying local, but we've gotten away from that over the past 15-20 years. Sony sells amazingly well in Japan because they have the support of their people no matter what they put out.

macalu · Mar 17, 2006

Svpernaut said:

Simply because they have factories here doesn't mean that is a great thing... American auto-makers have factories here and their corporations are based here which keeps the vast majority of their revenue within our borders. If more Americans bought American we wouldn't have the huge trade deficit we do... most other countries in the world pride themselves on buying local, but we've gotten away from that over the past 15-20 years. Sony sells amazingly well in Japan because they have the support of their people no matter what they put out.
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it would help if american cars were up to par in quality to the foreign counterparts too.

underoverup · Mar 17, 2006

Da-Glyde said:

Some of you need to get off RCs nuts .. ..
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after reading your post it sounds like you want everyone to get off so you can get on..............

brentdapmp · Mar 17, 2006

I like my Xbox 360..........a lot.

and GRAW is a very very good game.

this thread just needed a little positive message.

Svpernaut · Mar 17, 2006

macalu said:

it would help if american cars were up to par in quality to the foreign counterparts too.
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I agree, but their failure to meet decent sales marks limits their R&D and has for two decades now... I'm not one of the flag carrying "YOU HAVE TO BUY AMERICAN" people, but I do know most Americans could care less about where something is made they just want what isn't going to hurt their wallet... and with our ignorant union laws state-side there is no way we can compete with our foreign competitors because it costs so much more to make cars and other goods within our borders.

DrLudicrous · Mar 17, 2006

Svpernaut said:

That is the difference between Microsoft and Sony, if the PS3 bombs Sony is nearly dead... if the 360 bombs Microsoft is still flying high, they just have a black eye. Sony isn't as diverse a company as Microsoft is and they certainly don't have the money coming in from other places like Microsoft does to keep their gaming wing afloat, and this is why the delay hurts Sony even more. Sony is betting nearly their entire company on the success of the PS3 while Microsoft is hoping to just pad their wallets a bit more.

Every 360 that is sold puts Sony farther and farther in the hole and that is why financial instituions aren't thrilled with the delay. Microsoft doesn't expect to overtake Sony in this generation of the console war so the amount they chip away at Sony's lead is more up to Sony then it is Microsoft. Sony has fallen on hard times over the past decade or so with the increased competition in the consumer electronics sector and without the success of the PSX and PS2 they would be nowhere near where they are now, so their success of the PS3 is far more important to them then the 360's success is to Microsoft.
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Microsoft:
Computer Software
Computer Hardware
Xbox + gmes

Sony:
Home electronics (tvs, stereos)
Portable Electronics (Cameras, mp3 players)
Computers
Movies
Music
PlayStation + games

How is Microsft more diverse than Sony? Their software division may make more money than Sony but they aren't more diverse and Sony certainly won't be going out of business if the PS3 fails.

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