[Official] Reggie Bush or Someone else -- Vince Young out of running

FYI Jerry Rice just said (ESPN radio) with his size, speed and throwing ability VY will be an excellent NFL QB. On the Wonderlic issue, he basically said if you want to know about his football inteligence watch the Rose Bowl and not look at some general IQ test at the combine. Jerry Rice, Ronnie Lott, Marcus Allen, Hall of Fame Californian football players don't seem to doubt Vince Young is ready for and will be an impact NFL QB.

Casserly also added the Texans don't factor in the Wonderlic AT ALL. Also, "I think there's value in our pick," Casserly said. "Whether it's (former USC running back) Reggie Bush, (former Texas quarterback) Vince Young or Matt Leinart, those three players are going to produce trade offers.

What the Texans should do is an open debate. I am still open to Bush, VY or trading down (pending workouts). But some of your guys claims that VY isn't drawing some interest as a top 3 pick or that the #1 pick is already set in stone for Bush without any of the top 3 picks actually working out (have to wait for pro days on March 22 & April 2) is just ludicrous.

As a betting man I'd say for the Texans it is 50/50 for the overall #1 to Bush, 15% for the overall to VY and 35% trading down. The workouts will decide it.

BTW SC has 14 guys invited to the combine and Texas 6. Every single member of SC's offense who is draft eligible was invited. Without a doubt Jarrett (1st team all-america and THE best college receiver), Steve Smith (top 5 returning pro WR prospect), Sam Baker (3rd team all-america, 1st team all pac-10) and Ryan Kalil (1st team all Pac-10) will also be invited in the future. Further, not only are these guys invited to the combine, they all are expected to be drafted. That makes 12 offensive regulars off of SC who are likely to be drafted. Anyone saying Vince Young had "a lot of talent around him" in the same breath as Leinart or Bush, isn't looking too hard into SC's talent. I strongly believe if you take VY off Texas and put him on a handfull of other teams (Miami, Ohio S, Florida State, LSU, maybe Georgia & Auburn too) that team is your odds on national champion (every bit as good if not better than Texas was). No other player, not Leinart, not Bush, not Quinn, would have that kind of impact. Matt Leinart even admitted VY was Texas's offense and they couldn't stop him.

 

zzzz

zzzzzz

The texans will not pick Vince Young, stop trying to convince us that they should.

For the Record Richard Justice was on PTI and said that vince did in fact get a 6. He said that Vince was not prepared for it. He said the track record is not good for those who score under 20

 

like marino and mcnabb?

 

Don't ask me. Send him an email and tell him. I am sure they are exceptions ano not the norm.

 

Thats close. We almost agree on something. I'd put it 60% Bush, 35% Trade and 5% Vince.

 

You are one of the folks with the closed mind on it all. I'd lean towards Young if I had the #1 pick based on what he and other top picks showed on the field, but I'd certainly wait for workouts.

So Casserly said VY did not score a 6. Casserly all but implied it was a 16. Casserly went on to say they DON'T USE THE WONDERLIC AT ALL IN EVALUATIONS ANYWAY. Studies also show the Wonderlic is irrelevant to football quarterbacking--probably why they don't use it (not to mention Marino, McNabb and McNair all scored 15 or lower).

Go on an say you don't like VY because he stole and threw away your girlfriend or whatever, but stop bringing up dumb*hit points, please.

 

Yep, not too far off.

 

Hey genius - Casserly just said that they do factor it in but its not very important. Everywhere I see says he got a 6 and then retook it. John Clayton just said that he is lucky he got a 16 because anything less than 12 would have hurt. Another thing is who cares how casserly evaluates it, Vince should worry about NO, NYJ, TENN and OAK

 

If VY doesn't go to Hou, I would love for him to go to NY. the hype would kill the haters.

 

Everywhere you see says he got a 6 and then retook it BECAUSE THE 6 SCORE WAS NOT A VALID SCORE.

Of course you omitted that part on purpose because you're objective. I know this because you said texas had a good basketball team.

 

It was a valid score!! Read around.

 

Since IC2000, Kas, and others have stated their doubts that Vince can run a pro offense and throw effectively (because Carr has done that right?), I want to hear them address possible issues with Bush.

1) Do you each at least admit that there are issues with Bush?

2) What do you each think the chances of Bush having those problems in the NFL are?

The issues that I'm referring to are his evidenced inability to run inside, nonexistant record of being a workhorse back, his size, his apparent inability to be counted on for two yards, etc.

Feel free to chime in with other issues VY supporters, you have many to choose from.

 

Wrong. Simply wrong. I've read the articles. And if you come to this conclusion after reading them, I think you must be sub-6 yourself.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on your personal interaction with Young that led you to belive he's a big ol' dummy.

 

If Justice said it, he probably aced the thing.

 

No, it was not.

The stories say he got a 6 because the test was scored incorrectly.

So, unless league sources, Charlie Casserly, Floyd Reese, and Vince's agent are all in on a burnt orange conspiracy, the score of 6 is invalid because the test was not properly given.

 

Really, I thought he said this:


Texans | Casserly comments about Young's Wonderlic test
Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:14:44 -0800

… said Casserly. He was asked how the test would impact the Texans opinion of Young and he replied, "Well, I can only speak for the Houston Texans. I can't speak for 31 other teams. I just said how we evaluate it. It doesn't make any difference what the test score is to us. We're going to go through the same evaluation. I could point to players that have high test scores but couldn't necessarily learn football. So you go through that process, and then we'll evaluate that player's ability to learn our system at the end of it."

Even if this is true, it meant he was monkeying around the 1st time, it was mis-scored, OR the test is worthless (otherwise a person couldn't go from a 6 to a 16 with less than a day of tutoring--there is no test with a salt where this is true).

Why did Casserly even talk about Vince Young's score, or whether they use the score, or why does he bring up VY's name at all. Why are they bothering to evaluate and discuss VY as a their pick and/or as trade bait.

BTW I was one who said if the 6 was valid when the news broke (it obviously isn't valid, you can quote Casserly on it) that would disturb me about taking him as a QB prospect. But the difference between a 15 and 35--nah, not very relevant to football brains. Plenty of history and data to suggest this.

 

The bottom line here is they both have issues. Bush's inlcude being a workhorse. The size one is a tad silly as the guy is 21 years old. He will max out in size between 23-25. Additionally, guys with his level of explosiveness can gain muscle VERY easily. He is not a power back, but that can be sovled by having a big back as your number 2 guy ala ATL and PIT. THe running inside arguement is also alittle silly. If you take running inside to mean running people over than he probably won't do alot of that. I take running inside to mean hitting holes between the tackles and I think he will do fine in that regard. In fact on alot of his highlights he hits it inside, THEN breaks it outside. This is not a bad thing at all.


VY has not played in a pro style offense, has not dropped back much from center in his time in college, and has made a ton of his big plays with his feet. In fact at this time last year they were talking about him as a WR in the NFL. He dramatically improved his passing game this year. Can he read
the blitzes fast enough ect.. I think VY will ultimately make a good QB in the NFL. I think it will take him a few years. At worst he will be a Vick version II. This is not a bad thing at all. Vick has made the playoffs and gotten to the NFC championship game. He does have alot of upside as well.

They both have question marks, though usually there are more questions with QBs in general regardless of what offense they played in college. Andre Ware looked like an absolute stud, and ended up being a stud. Brady wasn't even a full time starter at Michigan and we all know how well he has done.

 

Bush is not a perfect back. As far as your issues with him, it basically boils down to two issues. "Inability to run inside" and "apparent Inability to be counted on for two yards" are the same issue. "Size" and "nonexistant record of being a workhorse back" are the same issue.

We label the first issue, as "inability to run and get tough yards inside". You know what, that might not be one of Reggie Bush's strength. Then again, it might not be a huge weakness either. We just don't know. The fact of the matter is, if the opposing defense can't stop Reggie from getting to the corners, why should he stop trying to turn the corner. It's like saying Yao doesn't have a jumper because all he does is score in the lowpost. It's not that he can't shoot an outside jumper. It's just that he's unstoppable down low and shooting outside is not asked of him. Bush is unstoppable at the collegiate level at running outside. Does anyone ever talk about why Vince Young only runs for big yardage to the right hand side? If people can't stop Vince from running outside to the right, then why should he stop?

The second issue is the "Noxexistant record of being a workhorse back". We've already discussed plenty in this thread about the numerous backs in the NFL who are both workhorse backs and are smaller in stature than Reggie Bush. Basically it comes down to this. LenDale White has proven to be a top 15 pick in the 1st round. It's not like Reggie Bush was splitting carries with a scrub. Also, Reggie Bush carried the ball a handful more times than LenDale White in the 2005 season. Why do people not question LenDale White's ability to be a full time back? Just because his bigger in size. Bigger size over the course of NFL history has not ensured durability as a running back. Just look at Eddie George, Jerome Bettis, Bam Morris, Natrone Means, and a slew of other at one time or another elite backs. They were not able to sustain their elite running abilities for more than 6 seasons as oppose to guys like Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders, Tiki Barber, and Warrick Dunn that have been able to sustain it for 9 years or more. Also, objectively speaking, using pure statistical measures, Bush carried the ball more than LenDale White this past season. So hasn't Bush showcased the ability to at least carry the ball more than LenDale White.

 

Put me in the camp that says Young actually scored the 6. I believe the whole re-scoring defense is an attempt on the NFL's part to reduce their liability to a lawsuit from the Young camp. Because the scores are supposed to be private, Young could potentially claim damages and sue the NFL for the inappropriate disclosure. Since Young was unprepared for the test, I wouldn't be surprised if he ran out of time and didn't guess on the last 30 or so. So if he got about 6 out of 20 before running out of time, that equates to roughly 12 out of 50 if he guesses randomly on the remaining 30 on the second time around. That's not that far off from a 16, which is apparently what he got the second time he took it.

Look, bottom line is that Young is dumb. Very dumb. If he weren't so dumb, maybe more people would believe that he DIDN'T score a 6. I think he did and the NFl/Young camp are doing their darndest to cover it up. A lot of insiders are adamant that he did in fact score a 6. That much continues to be true.

 

Oh, don't worry, you've been in the camp for crackpots in denial for quite a while there. Consider yourself well put.

Here - have a paper, KAS13 is reading the Chicago papers - how about a New York Post - it's owned by News Corp., so it's probably up your alley: