1)I don't ever remember a time when 'scorers' could decide who wins or loses a ball game. Last night it was between Dotel and Villone. I was amazed to hear about this. Has it always been that way or is that a recent thing. I always thought the pitcher who came into the game after the starter (who didn't go 5) was up for the win no matter the score. 2nd question: How does this schedule thing work. Ya know, where they are forced to play the division leaders at the end of the season. Do they set that at the All Star break or before the season starts? ------------------ humble, but hungry.
Generally the offical scorer goes by the book when deciding who gets the win. The starter will always get it if his team is ahead (and stays ahead) when he leaves the game as long as he pitches 5 innings or more. It is when he pitches less than 5 innings where the official scorer comes into play. 99.9% of the time, the pitcher who is in the game when his team goes ahead for good gets the win, but there are a few times a year when it doesn't happen. Oddly enough, the official scorer has given the win to a different pitcher for the Astros twice this year. I can never remember that happening in all the years I have followed the team. Villone did not pitch well last night, BUT he did get them out of a tight spot at a critical juncture. Had he given up more runs in the 5th inning, then perhaps the scorer would have given the win to Dotel, but we'll never know. The schedule is made out in advance of the season. This year they went to an "unbalanced" schedule where you play moregames against teams in your own division. For instance, the Astros will play 16-18 games against the Cardinals, Cubs, Reds, Pirates and Brewers. It is just a coincidence that they are playing the Cubs and Cardinals so many times at the end of the season and that those are the two teams likely to be fighting them for the division title. ------------------
The Cardinals are toast. It's the Cubs and the Astros. ------------------ It looks like a veteran can Be had.
As far as giving the win to a certain pitcher, it the most effective pitcher. Just like a scorer using their judgement on an error, its their discretion as too the most effective pitcher. What a crazy game last night. ------------------ T-Pooh and BahDakota went up the hill, to make a bet on a Foreward. When it all came down, they were nowhere to be found. Now they should be drawn and quartered.
Can someone explain to me what happened last night between Alou and Berkman? I just missed the clip on SportsCenter. ------------------ 13-0
Thanks bobrek. Yeah. With 2 outs Berkman watched the double instead of running on contact. He was thrown out at home by a half step. Alou threw his helmet into the ground and got pissed. Then he let Lance have it in the dug out and turned his back on Berkman while he tried to defend himself. Then he came back and consoled him later on. The Announcers (Sutcliffe) were bustin on Berkman and were talking about how Alou was a great field leader for letting him have it. ------------------ humble, but hungry. [This message has been edited by PhiSlammaJamma (edited July 19, 2001).]
I love the way Alou plays the game. At first I thought it was about his rbi #'s, but I think he just told Lance to pay attention, in a coarse way. I don't like the idea of subjective scoring. What if Oswalt had pitched into the 6th with a 10-8 lead ? Do you give the reliever who shuts down the Cards for one inning the W ? I think it should be by the book, and the subjective stuff in the book should be thrown out. BTW, did Dotel get the save ? He pitched 3 scoreless innings I think. ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you."
Dotel pitched 2 1/3 innings and the tying run was not on deck when he came into the game so he does not get a save. As I mentioned earlier, the starter will always get the win if he pitches at least 5 innings and his team does not relinquish the lead after he leaves. That being said, what if the starter is removed for a pinch hitter in the bottom of the 5th with his team trailing 12-0. His team goes on to score 13 runs in the 5th and a reliever comes in, shuts down the other team and they end up winning 13-12. By rule, the starter gets the win, does he deserve it? ------------------ [This message has been edited by bobrek (edited July 19, 2001).]
That being said, what if the starter is removed for a pinch hitter in the bottom of the 5th with his team trailing 12-0. His team goes on to score 13 runs in the 5th and a reliever comes in, shuts down the other team and they end up winning 13-12. By rule, the starter gets the win, does he deserve it? Sure, why not? He pitched 5 innings and gave up 12 runs. His team scored 13 runs in that same span. Thus, he won. Granted, he didn't pitch well, but then again, pitchers that go 9 innings and give up 1 run still get losses in 1-0 shutouts. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
As far as I know, there was never any debate last night. Since the Cardinals took the lead from the Astros, and the Astros took back the lead, only Ron Villone was eligible for the win. And on the other side, since he gave up the lead, only Hackman was eligible for the loss. As far as I know, only when the starter does not go 5 innings, but his team never loses the lead, does the official scorer consider the most effective reliever. ------------------ It was the time of the preacher, in the year of '01 Now the preachin' is over, and the lessons begun . . .
I refer you to the Astros-Royals game from 07/07. Mike Jackson entered the game in the bottom of the 8th with the Astros LEADING 10-8. The Astros led the entire game (never even tied) but the starter pitched less than 5 innings. Jackson was given the win despite pitching 2/3 of an inning. See the box score and recap at (See Dierker's comments in the recap): http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?date=20010707&gameId=210707107 I also refer you to the Astros-D'backs game from 06/26. Same type of situation. In this case, Dotel was awarded the victory when Cruz was the "book rule" winner. See the box score and recap at (note Dierker's comments in the recap): http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?date=20010626&gameId=210626129 ------------------
