Popeye, I know you are just thinking about theoretically possible scenarios here and as I understand it, this is not what you really want? To tell you the truth, I don't think this lineup is better - not now, not in the future - than what we have right now. Not even close...we'd have the backup PG we need, the SG would be the same, the SF would definitely be much better, but the PF and C would be SO much worse. [This message has been edited by GermanRocket (edited November 23, 1999).]
Sorry kids, its about chemistry and talent, not just talent. Look at Scottie Pippen - dude is a stable, team leader in Portland right now. He was an ass-biting mosquito when he was here. We got enough talent, we need to figure it out with what we got. It is not getting any better than this. You can sit around all day and change the parts, but at some point, you will need to work with the parts you have a figure out how the car is going to run properly. Championship teams do not develop out of assembling supergroups. By the way, Clutch, the takes on loyalty to Hakeem having anything to do with the Arena vote are kinda wack, my good man. . .but thats a new thread. forget it, i am going to get fired for spending too much time on this BBS. I tell ya when loyalty went out the window, it was when they traded Chucky Brown. CBrownFanClub
In my view trading Barkley to the East could be possible. Because that conference is so weak, he could make the difference between an also ran and a real contender for the conference title (even if Chuck leaves this year, that is a nice boost to a disappointing franchise). He could be the difference between Miami, NY, Indiana, Milw, Toronto or Phily making it to the finals or not (maybe even Charlotte and Detroit too). None of those teams by any stretch of the imagination has a PF with the combination of rebounding and offensive prowess as Barkley. Come to think of it, with the exception of Miami, this principle is also true for a Dream trade. I guess just about all the dominant big guys are in the West, which should make our 2 old guys extremely marketable to teams that think they have a chance for the east title right now, and can't afford to pass up the opportunity. In the West, except for the Lakers, all the very good teams have outstanding PFs. The only exception is Minnesota, though KJ could be considered a great PF and Smith is OK, but I don't see them breaking up the youth movement. Dream could make more sense from the other teams perspective (he could put Minn, Sac and ugh, Utah, in the running for a title this year), but I just don't see that happening.
Popeye, good luck on bringing Rice off the bench. This guy is capable of being unhappy starting. He'd want out fast.
I would not send Barkley to the Lakers. If he did help them win a Championship, then the Lakers would have a lot of confidence and that's exactly what we don't need. Besides, has anyone said that the Lakers are interested in Barkley? They have enough problems with egos and players getting shots. Finally, who do the Lakers have that we would want? We don't need another weak point guard with a long contract.
German Rocket As you said I do not endorse some of this,I am frankly quite happy with the progress so far,honestly. Cabbage and I and a few others sometimes bait one another with a plausable and somewhat realistic (this one stretches reality a bit,LOL) excercise through seperate correspondence via email. We have just projected that here. So ... Agreed in part. However ... 1.This deal unleashes a sizable salary in Hakeem. If Hakeem retires next year or plays,we still get stuck with a hefty salary figure to apply to the cap. It doesn't disappear because he retires. It obviousily stays if he stays. Do you think the present system will be anymore beneficial to Hakeem's game next year. 2. Our inside-out game is only as effective as (a)our outside shot (b) our slashing to the open middle. We have not got these now. No outside shot as a threat. Full timers causing an outside threat would be Rice, McGrady, Francis, and spotter Mobes, sounds better than(what we have now,in) Drew and Bullard. Two guys who have limited PT. Hakeem and Charles's game (I am more convinced they are effective right now, than most do here) still clog up the middle. Their multi dimensional teammates cannot use their talents. McGrady is poetry in motion in a slash and burn run. Francis at the one or two, Anderson and Mobes ... man, their games would flourish. 3.Rice's salary would be clear next year. McGrady's salary would be clear next year. In combination with some others and Hakeem's salary savings we would have approx. $12.5 to $13.8M in usable cap (an estimate, don't hold me to it). PLUS we retain the Bird Options to purchase McGrady and Rice OUTSIDE the cap if we want, or sign and trade that as an option on McGrady's contract(unlikely). PLUS, we have the unused portion of the Smit's exception. Want to talk about Duncan, Hill or anyone else out there,next summer? We haven't got a prayer as it stands right now. 4.It forces the Rockets to retool their thinking along with the team. It will also allow the " great potentials" to play a faster upscale game. Whether they,or the coaches want that to happen or not. Like the guy said when he was told the dam broke and everything was flooding. "Oh no! I am not ready for that!" Ya'll ain't got a chance. Either run or get caught in the stampede. 5. I am not as convinced that this would be as good for Hakeem as it is for the Rockets. But in Barkley's case, we would both win if he went somewhere. Sir Scar Agree Barkley would be more benefit in the East,but lets face it the ring will come out of the West this year. BTW: Oakley in Toronto and PJ Brown in Miami both have the PF duties, and I would trade Charles for them hands down right now. Pale Rider Rice would robably platoon with any number oif guys in the 2/3 position. hell, he will be regulated back to the bench when "just call me" Kobe come sback anyway. AeroFrancisco What point guard are you talking about? Rice plays the two and occasionally the three. rarely the one. What heavy contract? Rice's contract is up at the end of this season. Cheers. [This message has been edited by popeye (edited November 23, 1999).]
Why do I have to be the only voice of reason? Hakeem said this was the most talented team he has ever played on! When has Hakeem ever said something that straightforward in his life? We need nothing more than a couple of minor supporting players and a lot more chemistry. After the way this season has started, do you really think that Rudy is going to make another huge change midseason, and hope that solves everything and doesn't blow up in his face? Sorry, guys. It ain't gonna happen. Lets face it. Listen to Hakeem. This is the best Rockets team that we have ever put on the floor. We are going to be absolutely unstoppable once Williams and Drew get their sealegs. You heard it here first guys. You are all way too uptight. Relax, this team will be one of the great ones, I promise. And Costas, you suck! ------------------ "I would like to thank... everyone... for their contriboootions" Hakeem accepting his MVP award at the 1999-2000 NBA Finals.
Even I as one of the eternal optimists on this site wouldn't dare to say that this is the best Rockets team ever...but I also think that some people are just way to pessimistic and that we do not need to give up on the season after not even 15 % of the games have been played. No trades involving Hakeem, Charles, Francis should be done, and Mobley and Cato/Anderson (who couldn't be traded yet anyway) should be considered untouchables, too. However, I would love to trade Walt Williams and Bryce Drew for ANYTHING...especially a veteran backup pg.
Clutch It is your thread. But, I don't understand picking apart someone's response one remark at a time. Let me repeat the crux of my comments: You don't value team chemistry like I do...that's the difference between our views. Team chemistry must be nurtured over years, and become synomous with the franchise. It really is the only thing the franchise head office can affect. X and Os and stats that lead to coach selections and trades are fine...but they must always be weighed against maintaining franchise identity and team chemistry. Another intangible you wholesale trade mongers..high lottery pick fantasizers fail to consider is the fan and how they turn on players or embrace them. Fans can destroy a players psyche. Right now, the younsters are taking little heat because our leaders are still here. As for the Portland remark...if they don't win this year, they haven't grown one iato. They were handed a gift from the sky (Pippen), and now must win or it could actually set back the team chemistry. My feeling is: if they have a ring in the cards, they were going to do it w/o the Pippen trade.
I sure as hell hope we fire/move-up-to-the-front-office RudyT before Trading Dream or Charles. I'm not worried yet, though. True, we suck right now, but I have seen nothing but improvement. The one thing I'm afraid of is if we trade Dream, the Rockets and the NBA in general are GONE from Houston. ------------------ Proud Cheerleader 'til we move to New Orleans 302
Shut up German Rocket! We've heard you enough on the matter!!! please,you are making a great and interesting post very uninteresting. How many times do you have to make reference to Clutch's one smart remarkk without a response??? I thuoght it was uncalled for at first but now I think I see what he is getting at. all he said was he wasn't surprised and if he knows you to react like this I would not be either. As for the first post by clutch I dont agree. It raises a tough question for me when it comes to akeem and I do not want to see him go. I dont think I cant explain it but I cant see him go.
Popeye, I was thinking more in the vein of just getting there. I think most any Eastern franchise except perhaps Mia and NY would be thrilled to get that far, and it would be a big boon to any organization. Also, if I am NY or Mia, Chuck could be a difference maker for a year or 2 (talk him into 1 more year), and give them a better shot a the title (especially Mia who has great defense but needs the O). Also, I would trade him for Brown because he is younger, but not Oakley. I'd rather have Chuck for his last year than Oakley for his last 2-3. I looked over Miami's salaries, it would be hard to do a deal w/o Mash, Brown, Mourning or Hardaway involved (unless Marjley's is up there). I don't know how they get away with paying Thorpe and Witherspoon and Leanard only around 2 mil. each. As far as NY, maybe we could do something like Childs or Ward + Turkan + Thomas + #1 for Chuck. If Mia or NY got Chuck, with the defense they have everywhere else, they would have a much better chance at a title. Also, you never know, Duncan and Robinson or Smith and B.Grant can get injured in the finals like Magic and Scott (or was it Worthy), so you can win the title by default (like the Pistons in 89 I think). Also, Hakeem may say he has the most talent around him he ever had, but he is forgeting he can no longer take 5-6 role players on his back and win a title. It is not like we went 6-6 (which wouldn't be good but be understandable). We went 2-10 and lost a fair number of games by a wide margin. Talent alone (w/o chemistry) should carry you over bad teams and allow you to win almost all of your home games. Just look a Portland, they have had injuries and working in 2 new starters plus new major subs, and they are like 16-1 since their changes. That is talent, not what we have. I don't like to admit it, but we just don't have the talent right now and have major holes in our line-up (like our starting 3). This modest talent + not having chemistry = 2-10.
hey German Rocket just posted a long thread ripping Clutch again and when I posted a response he deleted it. guess he chickened out. now I have even more respect for what clutch said.
What the ยง%&" do you mean, I chickened out. I deleted my post because I came to the conclusion that nobody cares if I am upset that Clutch is making uncalled for remarks. That's why I wrote him an e-mail about it the first time it started in the first place, to which he never responded. But since you feel the need to post twice just to refer to what I have said, let me repeat it really briefly. I think that, with all due respect, it's no good style by Clutch to first make a personal remark and then to not respond to the reaction to that remark, although that reaction was focused on the basketball question that was raised if the Drexler trade and the current Rockets situation are comparable. That's all. [This message has been edited by GermanRocket (edited November 23, 1999).]
DamonP -- I said it once and I'll say it again when it comes to GermanRocket: I'm not surprised. He knows what he is doing. He makes character attacks then 5 minutes later edits his posts with "out of respect", and makes you look silly for responding. You should have seen the post above this one before it was edited. And I saw the deleted post -- thanks for the backup. Most people don't know the half of what he does. The "polite letter he sent me" -- what a farce. I'd go in to more detail but it just isn't important. He's just a coward into his rep and wants attention. Unbelievable he's posted 3 times off subject without response on the matter. As for the Drexler analogy, I can't think of one that fits better. Hakeem said he didn't want to leave Houston. Yeah, and Rudy said he wasn't going to trade Pippen. He's clinging to that as if I'm saying we should trade Barkley and Hakeem kicking and screaming "No!", thus the Drexler case doesn't fit. Of course the hypothetical scenario would include Barkley and/or Dream wanting to play for a contender. That IS the whole point... I would expect them to want to win, and if it's a 9-29 team I don't know if that would happen on this club. However, I think everyone understood that well... except GermanRocket. heypartner -- "It is your thread. But, I don't understand picking apart someone's response one remark at a time." Sorry, it's just how I chose to respond to your post -- point by point. "Let me repeat the crux of my comments: You don't value team chemistry like I do...that's the difference between our views. Team chemistry must be nurtured over years, and become synomous with the franchise." Actually, I feel the same way you do, if not moreso. You just said team chemistry takes years to develop -- we don't have "years" when it comes to Hakeem and Charles. I love both players, it would pain me to see either go -- but if you love chemistry, lets get the young nucleus in here and start watching them grow. CBrownFanClub -- "By the way, Clutch, the takes on loyalty to Hakeem having anything to do with the Arena vote are kinda wack, my good man" Well, my good man, allow me to explain the "wack" version of events I came to. You may be right about it being wacked (seriously), but this is what I was thinking: The Rockets chose to make a business decision and listened to offers for Hakeem. They got what they perceived as a good offer and it leaked to the Chronicle. Fans freaked. "What about loyalty!?" they screamed. Well, the Rockets were loyal and pulled the plug on the deal, at the expense of the future of the franchise. In essence, they listened to the fans, despite many national critics/media members saying you can't listen to the fans in making business decisions. Meanwhile, Pippen is shipped, the Rockets' immediate title hopes apparently dashed and suddenly the referendum vote has failed. This is a business. Fans can scream loyalty all they want, but in major numbers, there won't be loyal fans unless the team produces wins. That's the name of the game: winning. You know it's true. You and I and most (if not all) on this board it won't be the case with, but when Hakeem retires and the Rockets don't have much, a lot of those "loyalty! Keep Hakeem!" fans will be long gone. How many times did the arena ref fail in San Antonio? Suddenly they get the best player in the league and a championship and fans exponentially increase and voila! The arena vote passes. I can't think of a more disloyal thing than what John McMullen did to Nolan Ryan back in 1988. Fans left the 'Stros in droves... but they brought in young buck Bagwell, built him around Biggio/Caminiti/etc. and fans returned. So why is it such a bad thing to mutually agree to send Hakeem to a contender, give him a shot at another ring, give our young guys more playing time, improve our future and maybe even bring him back into the front office when his career is over? Sometimes, fans don't know what they really want -- or better yet, they want it all -- and the Rockets need to treat this as it really is: A business. Hey... GermanRocket, come on ... where's that "Right on, Clutch" post? ------------------ Clutch Out to prove Scottie Pippen will apologize at gunpoint. www.clutchcity.net
Well, with 80+ posts in this thread, there's no point of me writing a long one that would probably just take up server space and be an echo of half the others. Anyways, I would not want to trade either, for a variety of reasons several have already mentioned. The young guns needs some mentoring among several others. But if between the two legends, I would trade Chuck. Simply 'cause he's in his last year and ringless, his salary is slightly lower and therefore easier to trade, and far less attached to the city than Hakeem. However, I believe Dream would be a better fit for more teams, mainly due to a lack of depth at the center position around the league as well as the fact that his ego would not get in the way of a teams chemistry. With that in mind, one team I did not see mentioned as a possible Barkley destination is Miami. They are a level below the power houses in the West and Chuck could easily bring them up to that level. While they are not as desperate at PF as the Lakers with Weatherspoon and Brown, a solid rebounder like Sir Charles would take a lot of pressure away from Zo. I always believe that Tim HARdaway and Chuck would be a good fit, but I'm a bit wary of Riley's opinion. Mashburn/Lenard could be the possible players that come our way. Just an idea to throw around. Oops, looks like I did write a long post. Azim da Dream ------------------ "Change does not necessarily assure progress, but progress undeniably requires change." - Motto of the Houston Rockets
Clutch: Actually, I feel the same way you do, if not moreso. You just said team chemistry takes years to develop -- we don't have "years" when it comes to Hakeem and Charles. I love both players, it would pain me to see either go -- but if you love chemistry, lets get the young nucleus in here and start watching them grow. Hell yea, brother. THAT is what I am saying! Popeye: What about trying to create a situation like the one up in Detroit to try and attract Jalen Rose and Mo Taylor? I dont know, how much does the Maloney-Mclean-Augmon guaranteed $$ limit us?
About the Charles to LA trade thing....I don't really think Charles is Phil Jackson's ideal PF...he wants more of a defensive minded PF, and don't forget the fight with Shaq. I find it hard to believe that the Rockets can get very much value for an old vet, who has already stated that he will retire this year (this time it looks like he actually will). He has game, but he earns too much money for something with a lot of value to be returned in exchange, you can't expect to get a rising superstar for a fading vet.... I'm not really sure about Hakeem....but I have a feeling both aren't going to be traded, and correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Hakeem stated that he will retire if he was traded? I trust his word, and that will diminish his value greatly. [This message has been edited by napster (edited November 23, 1999).]
A few notes. 1. Tod is correct, regardless of the mindless "You aint a real fan" by the likes of Heypardner. Hakeem was all for going to Canada, a country where he has a high degree of love for. He wanted to milk another year out of the Raptors, which would of made it a 3 year right around 42 million deal. The Raptors ran away, Press got wind, Hakeem played the "Whats going on, Ill retire" role, Rudy pulled the plug on a deal that the Raptors were allready dumping. 2. What loyalty to players are you guys referring to. The rox have a good record with one free agent, Charles Barkley and nothing good to be said by any other ex Rocket players who showed commitment to the team. And a poor one with Mario Elie Scotty Pippen Kevin Willis Chucky Brown Sam Cassell Eldridge Recasner Not to mention Sam Mack, and 10 games into the Season Shanon Anderson's agent is allready claiming what a mistake it was to come to Houston. 3. Clutch is absolutely correct in asking what the difference in 35 or 12 wins are. Right on the money with the whos the true fan analogy Clutch. Why o why would you be satisfied with a mediocre season with nothing to show for it over the chance on getting your young guys some good playing time. Who was it that was saying about Cato getting time. What freaking games are they watching. Cato's game time is falling south for the winter, Anderson doesn't know what a fourth quarter is, Francis is replaced by the all mighty Drew in the fourth, while Rodgers, and Cato rot after the second period.
