As of right now, I would not trade either Hakeem or Charles. Hakeem is completely, totally out of the question, and with or without disclaimers, I would not even consider bringing up the question. Hakeem has already stated that he would retire if the Rockets traded him. It would be awful and it would cause players around the league to trust the Rockets a lot less when considering a move to Houston. It would just not be the right thing to do. Besides, I still think Hakeem is one of the best 5-10 players in the game (if you trust ESPN's "player rater" for their Fantasy Basketball game, he's ranked third there for this season, actually, I think - I KNOW that that's only stats, but I think it's interesting). Can you really name anyone we could realistically get in a trade that would be better than Hakeem? Anyway, I don't even want to think about it because it should be out of the question either way. With Charles, it's a slightly different question. I actually have to admit that I think that trading Charles would most probably be helpful for the Rockets. I think Hakeem can adapt much better to playing with Francis (and vice versa) than Charles can. However, Charles took "only" 1 million last year to play on the Rockets' team and he has always (well, almost) put in a lot of effort for the Rockets - so I would not trade him against his will. Anyway, if he indicated that he is interested in a trade, I would do it in a second.
Cabbage: I said Olajuwon for either Joe Smith or Tim Thomas. You highlighted Barkley. Are you trying to change the deal? Because I see no reason why Minnesota would want Barkley. They are pretty set at the forward position. Tod, perhaps move Garnett to the center? No...I'm just rambling now. I guess Barkley to Minnesota isn't really a possibility. I can't see Hakeem requesting a trade to Minnesota on the other hand, so I don't know about that. I think Smith is at 2 mill a year, meaning Minn would have to cash in an additional $13 million. That's like trading away their entire bench, so I guess it is safe to throw any Minnesota possibilities out. But what about Barkley for Thomas? Bucks are looking to unload him anyways due to contract dispute... PF Barkley SF Big DOG C Tractor SG Allen PG Cassell wishful thinking. I still think Barkley to Indiana is the most realistic thing we have right now. Perhaps trade Barkley for Best and Bender(?), turn around and package Best with Mobley and Mack to Dallas for Finley/Philly for Hughes/Ratliff-Hughes/Toronto for McGrady and cap fillers? Best would give us up flexibility in many trades as he is a valuable point guard and we already know that Toronto wants him. Hmmm...
Great post, Heypartner. I just read Tod the Bod's stuff and the most ridiculous thing (sorry) in this thread was the idea of Olajuwon or Barkley for "Tractor Traylor"...LOL
I still think that Olajuwon and Barkley are both better than all the guys you mentioned for possible trades will ever be and Olajuwon and Barkley will still be better in two years than all of these guys will ever be. It just doesn't make sense.
Since some of us are just having fun here, I nominate: 1. Scottie to Portland. 2. Charles to Philly. 3. Finals: Portland vs. Philly.
Hey Partner: What Rockets are you watching? Have you seen anything that would lead you to conclude that the Rockets will make the playoffs? I havn't. The Rockets have already given up the season, trading Barkley and/or Olajuwon isn't going to change that. If the Rockets are not going to make the playoffs this season, there is no reason to assume that the Rockets are going to make the playoffs next season. Barkley will not be with the team, and Olajuwon will only be one year older. Consequently, the Rockets have two choices. (1) They can let the team continue to decline over a long period; or (2) They can trade two very marketable players, speed up their decline, and start the rebuilding process, by picking up good young players and maybe a top draft pick. It cannot be restated enough that the Rockets will not truly begin the rebuilding process until both Olajuwon and Barkley are off the team. They take up too much of the salary cap and prevent the team from obtaining top-tier free agents. As for your argument that players will learn from Olajuwon so we should keep him around -- let's try to be a little realistic here. At this point in their career, Cato is probably a better defender than Olajuwon. And Cato is not the athlete that Olajuwon is/was. Consequently, Cato will not be able to pick up Olajuwon's moves from Hakeem. He is what he is. Olajuwon isn't going to change that. Moreover, Cato is just a stop-gap measure until the Rockets can get a better center.
Man, man, man. Y'all are going to feel so ridiculous in about a month when the Rockets are getting back in shape. I don't know what you have been watching guys, but the Rockets have looked substantially better in the last two games. We almost beat Seattle and Sacto and we're still trying to gell. The chemistry is starting to show, and these guys are definitely playing better than a month ago. We have a good team here guys, don't jump off the wagon just yet. (And yes, folks. That is exactly what a bandwagoner is...."We need to trade him, or him. Man that guy sucks, why did we ever get him....wait....they're starting to win....we still need to make changes though....wait....we're in the playoffs...well I'll just watch the games, but I know we're going to lose.....wait.....We made it to the finals! We're such a great team! We won the Championship! I knew it all along! The Rockets are the best team ever and I was the one who suggested everything that Rudy did! I'M AMAZING! I'M INCREDIBLE! I FORSEE THE FUTURE!" Sarcasm aside, Love this team for who they are, not who they could be. And remember, Hakeem said at the beginning of the year that this was the most talented team he has ever played on. That's got to mean something, huh? Anyone? Have faith guys! ------------------ "I would like to thank... everyone... for their contriboootions" Hakeem accepting his MVP award at the 1999-2000 NBA Finals.
I agree that the Rockets cannot start rebuilding until Chuck is gone. However, I am positive that we can rebuild with Hakeem on the team. Centers can still contribute even when they are old and Hakeem will still be better at 40 than any of the current young centers with the exception of Mourning and Shaq. Francis-Hakeem, a nice 1-2 punch for next year and I would even like it for more years if it wasn't for the salary cap.
fatty fat fat, I couldn't agree more - I'm glad someone else agrees with me - but beware, when you call other fans bandwagoners, the almighty C might get on your case (ask me about it...)
German Rocket: How many Rockets games have you watched this year. Do they even show Rockets games in Bonn? Do you even know what the Rockets' record is? Or are you just a German fantasy basketball player? Maybe you have an attachment to Olajuwon because you like soccer are he used to play soccer. Either way, Olajuwon is the highest paid player on the Rockets right now. He will be the highest paid player on the Rockets next year. If the Rockets are not going to make the playoffs this season and next season, you might as well trade Hakeem. You know that you aren't going to get equal talent for him. But you get whatever talent you can, and you try to free up cap room for next year. Barkley won't even be on the team next year. If we suck with him, we might as well trade him for help in the future. One other thing. If you trade Olajuwon and/or Barkley you force Rudy T. to move away from the post-up offense that he is married to. Maybe we'll finally see an offense that tries to make the most of our young, talented point guard.
Tod the Bod, true, I think it's pretty cool that Hakeem used to play soccer. I get some Rockets games on PayTV here, not many, unfortunately, but they also have a show on a sports channel where they show some games and the highlights from some games. That's why I have to refer to the boxscores more than I would if I could watch all games. I hope the fact that I don't get to see as many games doesn't mean that I can't still put my 2 cents in...
Fatty Fatty Fat: Dude, I don't know if you have seen any of my posts over the past two years, but I don't think that I could ever be called a bandwagon fan. If there is such thing as a negative bandwagon, that is me. You could probably count my positive posts on one hand. Most of my posts are very disparaging towards the Rockets -- a team that I love despite the fact that I hate what they have become. What I have tried to do for the past two years is to call on the Rockets to try to end the downwards spiral that they have been on since losing in the Western Conference Finals three seasons ago. In so doing, I have taken some very unpopular positions here, including that the Rockets should fire Rudy T. and the Rockets should get rid of Olajuwon and Barkley. People here have said that the Rockets would be acting short-sighted if they get rid of Barkley or Olajuwon. To the contrary, the Rockets, for the first time in several years, will be looking towards the future, instead of looking at the current season. Indeed, you are the short-sighted one. Do you really believe that the Rockets are going to win the championship over the next two seasons? If you don't, then you have to trade Olajuwon and Barkley. Just making the playoffs shouldn't be our goal. That is a losing attitude that should be reserved for teams like the Clippers. But that seems to be what your goals are. My goal is to win a championship. IMHO, that means that the Rockets need to start to rebuild.
Well, as I said, I still think we have a decent chance at the championship this season. I know it sounds crazy at 2-10, but...
BTW ... <a href="http://espn.go.com/nba/news/1999/1123/190088.html">Sixers just lost Iverson for 3-6 weeks with broken thumb</a>
German: I would never want to take away your right to put your "two cents" in. Go right ahead. But if your ability to follow the Rockets is limited to watching a few games, reading the box scores, and watching the highlights on the German version of SportsCenter, your "two cents" are worth a whole lot less than that. How could you possibly understand Hakeem's decline -- both in physical skill and, more important, in intensity. And more important, how would you know how well Tractor Traylor has played and whether we should be interested in him.
Cab: Actually one of the most underrated assets of Sir Charles is his lockeroom presence and leadership role. He teaches constantly. Well, I may be stretching to say he does it constantly. He has a great feel and knowledge of the game and harps at the youngsters all the time. Sammy: You of course are right,there isn't a lot to pick up in Pacer land. But as mentioned above by someone,(Cabbage?) Harrington is there. Croshere may be moved. I would love to have either of those guys. Bender is another, but who wants another kid, who needs to be taught to be coached right of the bat. (Frankly the biggest problem with these "phenoms" that enter the league,they are difficult to coach, they won't listen. All talent.No smarts.And no where to aim their energies. Good, sometimes great,individual scorers, but lousy shooters. But, that's another story.) Back to Sam and the Pacers. Do Not For A Second Think Miller Is Untouchable! I seriously doubt he would be made available for anything we have to offer. But he is not untouchable. Bird does not like him. He is not a leader and Bird has mentioned his star ball handler disappeared when he needed him most last year. He was talking about Reggie (1)not assuming leadership,primarily and (2) Reggie missed key (quality) baskets when they needed key points in the 98 playoffs. You can gear a play for your star shooter and have him mishandle or miss it only so many times in a seven game playoff. Especially if that same "star player" complains about bad coaching calls and most of his teammates "not pulling their "godamn weight" the night before elimination. Hey Reggie did you get the extension you been asking for since the last day of last season,yet? That leaves Jackson and a couple others. Most of those guys have not enough salary to even come close. Maybe Tabak(LOL). Other Posters: I forget who said this. But you cannot trade Hakeem or Barkley for draft picks,even if they did agreed. Draft picks have no value against the cap. The receiving team would still have to come up with the $9-10 Million salaries to equate the 85-115% rule. Sorry. It would be an insult anyway. It's like Horry going to LA Lakers. They didn't have enough in actaul trade so Phoenix threw in cash. Embarassing. Don't think that wasn't lost on Robert. He saw the dis coming.
Well, as I said, I have seen Rockets games this season and I have been following Hakeem for a while and it seems to me that he often starts out slow when the season begins and then he gradually improves as the playoffs approach. Concerning Tractor Traylor I really have to refer to the stats: If you think that 4.8 points, less than 1 assist and 4.5 rebounds a game, shooting .556 from the line, do justify a trade for Hakeem or Chuck...then what exactly am I missing here...do I have to actually SEE the guy bricking his free throws and not being able to pass the ball??
Tod,,,and anyone else who give credence to trading away both leaders of your team right before retirement: You must view this game from a fantasy basketball perspective. You clearly give no credence to the intangibles of this game, like leadership, team morale, and our some career minding players are attracted to class organizations who let them retire there. Tod...I have not only watched every game (except the last two--hunting trip), but I been to every home game. At this point, I do not see Cato being the best defender. The man leaves his feet too quickly. That's why he gets the fouls. Hakeem is still a better defender than Cato; Cato can simply jump higher. Also, Cato is not the rebounder I was hoping he would be. He hasn't shown me the fundamentals to block out, and he has a tendency to not clearly grab the ball. Watching Barkley, may or may not help him...but I hope it does. But the main intangible is leadership...I am a firm believer that if you don't gracefully pass the leadership torch, you are no longer as a franchise can control that wholly underated intangible...at least underated on this thread...and in the mind of fanstasy-heads. Without a clear leader on the team, no matter how old they are, you have a leadership vacuum and are now at the mercy of the collective ego's on the team allowing someone to rise to leader. For Tod's sake, let me rephrase something. I never said anything about the playoffs. I am not giving up on the value of the leadership of this franchise. If you think the team sucks, then you will get your top seven pick. If your goal is to get a top 3 pick, then you are giving up what makes this a classy organization. YOU ARE GIVING UP ALL THE INTANGIBLES...just like a fanstasy basketball freak would do to purge everything for next year.
heypartner: "Do you think Francis would have come to this club w/o Dream and Barkley here?" Unless Dream and Charles Barkley leaving the Rockets makes Houston a Canadian province.... .... yes. "We are giving the young guys a chance to play. And Cato gets to learn from Dream. Barkley gets to teach Francis how to have a cool head and a strong mental game. Those are intangibles you are not considering." Agreed, and it's a good argument. There are things to be said about keeping the two on the roster. However, I think you're taking it far too personal (see disclaimers) to be labeling me short-sighted and screaming at me to repent. I'm not saying this out of frustration or emotion. I'm not coming on after a loss and squealing, "WE SUCK! TRADE THEM ALL!" ... I think this is something that benefits both sides. Just treading water in the NBA is a dangerous thing. The other thing is: if this does continue, as you say, we will get a high pick anyhow!!! So we suck, get a pretty good pick and lose our stars for nothing, OR we suck bigtime, get a great pick, get something for our stars AND give them a chance to end their careers on winning notes. "So, what you really are saying is, you think this team will improve its record considerably if left alone," When did I say that? "considerably"? In fact, what I said was "if this keeps up" -- 9-29 as an example. I don't consider that a "considerable improvement", do you? BUT, why build on ground that's about to shift way anyway? Why not fully start the rebuilding process, give guys like Carlos Rogers and Kelvin Cato the PT they deserve, and give Dream and Barkley a chance at the ring? "you just don't want us to improve at the expense of a high draft pick." If we're 9-29, I doubt the playoffs are in our future. Are you looking for the brass ring that is being the team in the lottery with the best overall record? One word for those who follow rebuilding projects: Cleveland. Admit it Clutch...this is a thread about you wanting to prevent us from getting better this season...you want to sacrifice this season. What is "better"? Define that for me heypartner. Is 35-47 better than 15-67 for a rebuilding franchise about to lose their key stars this year and next year? If anyone is being "short-sighted"... "And you want to sacrifice the integrity of a class organization. Bring on Ruport Murdoch!!! repent...this is silly." Did anyone blast the Portland Trailblazers organization for trading Clyde Drexler both to his hometown and a title contender? Can we all not agree that was a GOOD thing? Did it stop Steve Smith, Detlef Schrempf, Brian Grant, Rasheed Wallace, Damon Stoudamire and Scottie Pippen from going there? In fact, the Blazers were praised highly for putting Drexler in a position to get a ring. I'm amazed you and GermanRocket can't see this. Actually, I've got to be honest. I'm not really amazed GermanRocket can't see it. fatty fat fat: I've got news for you: We're 2-10. The bandwagon fans are long gone. ------------------ Clutch Out to prove Scottie Pippen will apologize at gunpoint. www.clutchcity.net
