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If you voted for Prop 2...

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Mulder, Nov 11, 2005.

  1. Mulder

    Mulder Member

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    Hope you saw this coming.

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...uthwest/stories/111005dntexprop2.7a85398.html

    Gay marriage foes tackle divorce next

    After Prop 2 success, conservatives also push national amendment

    08:07 AM CST on Thursday, November 10, 2005

    By ROBERT T. GARRETT and WAYNE SLATER / The Dallas Morning News
    AUSTIN – Texas social conservatives want to translate their resounding victory on a gay marriage ban into broader results: reducing the state's divorce rate and passing a nationwide amendment to prevent same-sex unions.
    Rep. Warren Chisum, who wrote the amendment, Proposition 2, endorsed by Texas voters by a ratio of more than 3-1, said Wednesday that it's too easy for spouses to split up. The state should consider repealing or modifying its no-fault divorce law, the Pampa Republican said.
    "Gee whiz, our divorce rate's higher than New York," Mr. Chisum said. He proposed that between now and their next regular session in 2007, lawmakers study ways "to make marriage thrive more in our state."

    Meanwhile, leaders of the pro-amendment campaign said Tuesday's vote should add momentum to the drive to have Congress pass a federal constitutional amendment outlawing same-sex marriage.
    "This is a pretty strong message to Congress and the Senate before they vote on a marriage-protection amendment," said Kelly Shackelford of the Plano-based Free Market Foundation. "Most politicians are not going to want to stand up for the duty of standing in front of a steamroller."
    Texas became the 19th state to place a gay marriage ban in its constitution with an overwhelming vote Tuesday, 76 percent to 24 percent. Just one of Texas' 254 counties – Travis, home of traditionally liberal Austin – voted against it.
    In Dallas County, about two-thirds of voters endorsed the amendment, and in Harris County, nearly 73 percent did. Support was stronger in suburban counties such as Denton and Fort Bend but most fervent in the state's rural areas: East Texas voters registered nearly 90 percent approval.

    Gay rights activists
    Gay rights activists expressed disappointment and vowed to closely watch both the Legislature and the courts for possible "misuse" of the amendment.
    "We have to hope that the people who oppose gay rights won't try to make this amendment more than it is," said Ken Upton of Dallas, a top attorney for the gay rights group Lambda Legal. "It's been represented to be about marriage, so let's see if they'll follow through with that."
    Mr. Upton said supporters of gay marriage "don't have any plans on the horizon" to attack the amendment in federal court. He said his side expects to be playing defense, resisting lawsuits that challenge domestic partner benefits for employees of Travis County and the city of Dallas.
    The amendment prohibits the state and local governments from recognizing any status similar to marriage, and opponents have expressed alarm that clause could mean a sweeping ban on benefits shared by gay couples.
    While Mr. Upton and other gay rights advocates had predicted amendment supporters would next seek to ban gay foster parents and adoptions by gay couples, Mr. Chisum said he won't.
    "They may fear we're going to beat them over the head with this deal, but that's certainly not my intent," he said. "I intend to treat them with respect and listen to their issues."
    Cathie Adams, president of the conservative Texas Eagle Forum, said she favored a ban on gay and lesbian foster parents that the state House passed this spring. But, she said, "Until there are some changes in the Senate, that might have to wait a while."
    She endorsed Mr. Chisum's call for a review of the no-fault divorce law, which took effect in 1974.
    "It is a system that is broken," Ms. Adams said. "Men, women and children are getting hurt with that current law, with revolving-door marriages."
    Supporters of Proposition 2 said that during debates, they regularly heard gay rights activists cite Texas' divorce rate. Texas had about 3.9 divorces for every 1,000 residents in 2002, a higher rate than New York (3.4) or Massachusetts (2.5), according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    Mr. Chisum said he planned to ask House Speaker Tom Craddick, R-Midland, to convene a panel to examine no-fault divorce, longer waiting periods for marriage applicants and "covenant marriage," an idea tried in three other states.

    A covenant marriage provides an alternative to the traditional marriage contract for couples who oppose no-fault divorce or who want to demonstrate a stronger commitment. Couples selecting a covenant marriage must get premarital counseling and may divorce only after a separation of two years or after proving adultery or domestic abuse.

    Push for national ban
    On a wider scale, other backers saw the Proposition 2 vote as a boost to the effort to amend the U.S. Constitution. Colorado-based Focus on the Family said the tally showed Americans believe marriage should be the union of a man and a woman.
    "And yet, without federal constitutional protection, marriage continues to hang in the balance," the group argued.
    Although a similar effort last year led by President Bush stalled, conservative lawmakers say they hope the amendment will come to a vote in Congress. No timeline has been scheduled, but Mr. Shackelford said social conservative leaders hope the Texas vote "puts an exclamation point" on the urgency of Congress to act.
    Charles Cook, a political analyst and editor of the Cook Political Report, said factors beyond the Texas vote would probably have more influence on whether Republican leaders take up the measure next year.
    "Whether it was 65 percent or 80 percent, I don't think these numbers are surprising to anybody," he said. "We knew Texas would vote this way."
    A federal amendment would need the support of two-thirds of those voting in each House and then have to be ratified by three-quarters of state legislatures (38).

    Mr. Shackelford said he anticipates that the same coalition of pastors and social conservative leaders that pushed for the victory in Texas would be crucial to winning state ratification.
    E-mail rtgarrett@dallasnews.com or wslater@dallasnews.com
     
  2. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Hmm, while I didn't support prop 2 I think modifying divorce laws wouldn't be a bad idea. There seems to almost be an incentive to get divorced.
     
  3. basso

    basso Member
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    how many of those divorces occur because one or both of the partners want to engage in hot, sweaty, gay sex?
     
  4. droxford

    droxford Member

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    I dunno.. without thinking about it too much, my initial reaction is...

    rather than trying to make it harder for people to get divorced, maybe we should be trying to encourage people to make wiser marriage decisions before getting married...

    .. or maybe both...

    I dunno... lemme think about it some more.

    EDIT: and did that guy really say, "Gee whiz" ? Was he an original cast member from Leave it to Beaver?
     
  5. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    I thought I read somewhere that a total of 16,000 people voted on prop. 2.

    Does anyone know if that is accurate?
     
  6. Saint Louis

    Saint Louis Member

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    16,000? Now there is a mandate.
     
  7. NJRocket

    NJRocket Member

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    thats pretty damn funny :D
     
  8. flamingmoe

    flamingmoe Member

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    hehe not that bad, but still bad

    http://204.65.107.70/05novgen.htm

    17.93% of the 12,577,545 Registered Voters, voted

    1,718,513 for
    536,052 against
    2,254,565 total

    325,564 of the total is from Harris county
     
  9. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    Ahhh. I probably read that 18% of the registered voters voted on the prop.
     
  10. ChrisP

    ChrisP Member

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    So, effectively 13.63% of registered voters approved this legislation and that constitutes an "overwhelming vote"?

    Watch out for that steamroller!! :eek:

    Anyway, why don't they go ahead and just ban divorce altogether.
     
  11. ChrisP

    ChrisP Member

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    In all seriousness, it does bother me how easily people will resort to divorce. My brother's wife insisted on divorce despite the fact that he had never done any harm to her. She felt like he wasn't behaving the way she wanted him to and that was that. That's weak. Some people really should try harder to sort problems out instead of bailing.

    But, that's my opinion and I don't think it's my business (or the government's) to make that determination. They should be free to divorce or stay married as they see fit.
     
  12. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    "Gee whiz, our divorce rate's higher than New York," Mr. Chisum said. He proposed that between now and their next regular session in 2007, lawmakers study ways "to make marriage thrive more in our state."

    Some marriages fail when money gets tight. Do you think Mr. Chisum would be opposed to taking all of the money the rich aren't using and giving it to poor married couples so they fight less about money? I bet NOT.
     
  13. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    it should bother you. it bothers me, too.

    i'm just not sure it's the government's role to say. it may be the church's if it's a marriage in a church...it may be a temple's role...or a mosque's role...or whatever. but what in the world kind of marriage counseling would i receive from the State of Texas?? :) what could possibly go wrong! :D
     
  14. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    Well, the efforts they're considering are, "Mr. Chisum said he planned to ask House Speaker Tom Craddick, R-Midland, to convene a panel to examine no-fault divorce, longer waiting periods for marriage applicants and "covenant marriage," an idea tried in three other states." So, I think there is some thought toward people making better marriage decisions in the first place. I don't really know what the state can really do to help people be wiser about it.

    I don't know if they can really do much to help the divorce problem either. Nowadays, it seems people my age have a very fatalistic attitude about divorce -- we expect to get divorced at some point because it happens to everybody. When you go in expecting to fail, you're more likely to fail. That's why I always tell my wife I'd sooner murder her. :) But, even if we make it harder to divorce, we'll end up encouraging a trend of cohabitation that is already growing. With so many folks seeing marriage as doomed, they'd rather not start. Our official divorce rate may get better, but the unofficial one -- that's include people in longterm cohabitation relationships that break up -- would fare no better.
     
  15. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Other people's business is other people's business.

    BTW, I don't like the shirt you are wearing today. It sends the wrong message. Don't let it happen again. Or Mr. Chisum might make it illegal.
     
  16. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Well the other 85+ % apparently didn't think it was too important to vote against it.
     
  17. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    How many fail because money is tight? Do you have any statistics on this or are you just trying to make this a rich-poor issue?
     
  18. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Maybe if it's harder to get divorced, people will be smarter about getting married beforehand.

    Certainly it's not the government's job to decide who gets divorced. But perhaps there are certain laws and regulations that actually encourage people to get divorced. And maybe there is nothing wrong with a suffering a slight penalty for filing a divorce. Give people consequences for bad decisions (either getting married in the first place or doing something to cause the divorce to come about).
     
    #18 Mr. Clutch, Nov 11, 2005
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2005
  19. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    Anyway, I voted against Prop 2, and I didn't really see this coming, but I think it's good they are thinking about it. I never did like no-fault divorce.
     
  20. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Alimony leaves absolutely NO INCENTIVE to remarry

    Rocket River
     

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