haven -- once again, that one wasn't directed at you. but i certainly appreciate your service!! and I believe God does too! ------------------
MadMax: I know, but I share a lack of faith with Outlaw, so I thought a response from me would serve as well for all intents and purposes . And besides, I have trouble shutting up . ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
Max, You don't have to go back hundreds of years to see Christians who have misinterpreted the ideoligies of their own faith. The originators of Communism, which is the perfect government though it is an impossibility, were all Jewish(Marx, Lenin, Hess, Trotsky) and the most overtly violent leaders of both bloody movements(Nazism and Communism) were Roman Catholic(Hitler, Mussolini, Franco) or Eastern Orthodox Christian (Stalin). Despotic and intolerant ideoligies that breed fascistic dictators. In other words, these movements were not "atheistic", as religionists maintain. Indeed, Hitler proclaimed himself a Christian and fighter for "his Lord and Savior", using the famous temple scene with Jesus driving out the "brood of vipers and adders" as a motivation for his evil deeds. Said Hitler: It is no matter whether or not the individual Jew is decent. He possesses certain characteristics given to him by nature, and he can never rid himself of those characteristics. The Jew is harmful to us...My feeling as a Christian leads me to be a fighter for my Lord and Savior. It lead me to the man who, at one time lonely and with only a few followers, recognized the Jews for what they were, and called on men to fight against them..... As a Christian, I owe something to my own people." Hitler was raised Roman Catholic, and used religion as a weapon. All during his regime, Hitler worked closely with the Catholic Church, quashing thousands of lawsuits against it and exchanging large sums of money with it. In addition, thousands of Nazis were later given safe passage by the Vatican, as well as by multinational government agencies, to a number of locales via the "Ratline". In reality, Hitler was only building on a long line of imputation against the Jews as "Christkillers", a charge used numerous times over the centuries whenever the Catholic Church wanted to hold a pogrom against common Jews and seieze their assets. The events of WWII, in fact, were the grisly culmination of a centuries old policy, started by the Church and continued by Martin Luther, as was well known by Hitler. Hitler felt his evil deeds were a "divine" mission. Hitler's actions don't represent the ideas of Christianity to almost everyone, but it goes to show how powerful and dangerous religion is when misinterpreted. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 18, 2001).]
Because God did not set understanding as a prerequisite for loving Him. I think this has been explained at some length. Do not condemn the message for the messenger. There is no comparison between scientific endeavor and religious faith. None. Good for you that you find it funny. You can explain until you are blue in the face all the reasons you have for believing that the Bible is not the word of God. By the same token, outlaw can list all of the ways in which God's existence can't be proved using science. You should probably stop for a second, though, and ask yourself what you hope to accomplish by doing do. There are very few if any Christians who are going to renounce their faith simply because some find it difficult to believe. That's sort of the point of a "leap of faith". In your opinion. Why don't you read Josh McDowell's "A Ready Defense" and explain to me why the scholars cited in his defense of the Bible are laughable? There is a difference, one that I think you see but don't want to admit. Rosie O'Donnell is discussing an objective matter, warping facts to suit her beliefs, and claiming she is right where others are wrong in the area of public policy. Steve Francis is gratefully thanking his Father for the blessings he's received. He's not saying, "And you Jews and Muslims-- you're all wrong and despicable!" and he's not lobbying for prayer in school. There is no comparison between those two things. That's an absurdity. Very simply, there are two things that non-Christians have to accept if they want to discuss (or especially, debate) religion with a Christian: 1) Christians believe that Jesus was the Son of God, that He died and was resurrected to absolve mankind of its sin, and that the Bible is the word of God. It simply does not matter if you can trace what you consider to be a pattern of misinterpretations in writing the Bible over the years. You can offer no proof that those "misinterpretations" are errors at all in God's sight. 2) If you want answers, I will do my best to provide them. But the ultimate source is God. You may find inconsistencies and unanswered questions in the Bible. But expecting a man to be able to explain all of God's wisdom is folly. I hate to break it to you, but He didn't tell us everything. There are some things we're just not meant to know. [This message has been edited by BrianKagy (edited June 19, 2001).]
I don't believe in heaven or hell. ------------------ "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever."
Wow. I've been lurking on this thread for a couple of days, and it has been very interesting reading. So now I'll put my two cents worth in. Faith, or a lack thereof, is a personal matter. At least in the United States, we have the freedom to worship (or not to worship) as we choose. This is one more in a long list of freedoms that we should be grateful for. I have no problem with Steve Francis appearing on a Christian TV show. It is his right to worship and practice his faith however he wishes. The problem I have is with members of certain faiths or religions trying to force their beliefs on others. Whether it is a Christian faith, Jewish faith, whatever...I just don't believe in it. I once had a job where a co-worker was a Jehovah's Witness. When he found out I was Jewish, he said to me "Jewish? Oh man...you guys are way out in left field" and proceeded to hand me a stack of Watchtower magazines to read. I tossed them in a garbage can and never spoke to the guy again. Faith is a wonderful thing. It can provide people strength. Religion is a wonderful thing. It can provide people with direction. The freedom to practice a faith or not to practice a faith is a really wonderful thing. But it is personal. A person's relationship with God, or a person's choice to not have a relationship with God is a private matter. You can worship at the holy altar of the Schlitz can or you can bow down to the holy doorknob for all I care. It's your business, and none of mine. ------------------ "Blues is a Healer" --John Lee Hooker
I think it's very rare that non-believers try to convert the faithful. unfortunately. the opposite is not true. Like most atheists, I just want to be left alone and not ridiculed or pitied or proseleytized to. in real life i'm usually very respectful of other people's faiths and never debate about the existence of god unless i feel attacked for my own non-beliefs. i apologize if that hasn't been the case on this bbs. ------------------
Or actually, I don't believe in Hell and devils with pitchforks and fire and all that. I was raised a catholic so I'll always have guilt about doing the right thing. Anyhow, doing the right hitng makes ya feel good...sometimes. Heaven is right here and ever after...awwwww, just like a fairytail. Happily ever after. Life is ------------------ "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever."
Well, it's impossible to top what Tex has written here, although I would like to add that a central tenet of being a good Christian is to spread the Gospel. There are good ways and bad ways of doing this; the problem is that the bad ways of doing it are a severe turn-off to non-Christians. Anyway: I think this is probably true of us all.
The religion of Jesus Christ is not personal...in fact, He calls us to share it with others. It is intensely personal...but never meant to be kept secret. That's a huge part of what Jesus taught ------------------
BrianKagy: "Pride comes before the Fall"-- as regards rimbaud? Also, the "call" of the Christian is to invite people to invoke the saving power of the Holy Ghost into their life and undergo a spiritual rebirth. There is no "arrogance" because it is not about them, the Christian, it is about the life-changing event available. Beyond good Christian fellowship, the proselatyzer wants no attention or credit and knows his/her role as only that of a messenger. ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these." [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 19, 2001).]
I'm with Tex on this one. His description was dead on for me. This is such a sensitive issue. I see both sides. I think the big thing to remember is no one is wrong for their religious preferences. Understanding is the key. ------------------ "I may be mistaken, but I'm never wrong" -Barkley
huh? so is it not personal or intensely personal? the main problem i have with proselatyzers is when they target impressionable kids and teens who only want to fit in with the majority. ------------------
I think the question is how much is too much? When does "being fishers of men" take the nose dive into harrassment? That is the fine line we all have to learn. Jesus said, "Go ye therefore," AND "judge not." It requires both fervence and tolerance to pass on that wisdom to others. Plus, it makes good sense not to bother people who would prefer to be left alone. As my great grandmother used to say, "You catch more flies with honey than you do with flypaper." We also have to remember that we don't live in a vaccuum. At least once a week, these two Jehovah's Witness ladies come by my house, give me thier latest pamphlets and wish me well. They've never asked me if I was a Christian or if I believed in God. I've never offered my beliefs to them. They are sweet people who ask about our garden and our cats and chat politely. I have to wonder, however, just what their motivation is for coming back. They haven't put on the full-court press or even bothered to ask me how I felt. It is rather surreal. But, I recognize that I am a non-Christian in a somewhat Christian-dominated society. It can be frustrating at times and even annoying but it is the nature of living in this world. I guess it is just another lesson in detachment for me. ------------------ Things do not change; we change. - Henry David Thoreau
I understand that part of Christianity is to spread the word. In my opinion, there are right ways and there are wrong ways. And, also in my opinion, if the "catcher" (to use a baseball analogy) tells the "pitcher" something like "no thanks" or "you're wasting your time" or "please stop", then the "pitcher" ought to heed those words and move along rather than beating an obviously dead horse with that person. ------------------ "Blues is a Healer" --John Lee Hooker
Faith is the essence of Christianity . Without Faith you can't be sure of anything . I believe there is a Heaven open to anyone who repents and becomes saved . If you want to go to hell thats your choice , I can try to change your mind but God gave everyone free will to make up there own minds . I belive even Clinton attened Church . The hardest thing to do is not judge people . A lot of people think of Christians as Hypocrites because they go to Church carry their Bibles around and then go home and kick the crap out of their Dog . And its probably true . We have no right to judge people because of our beliefs . ------------------
Way to add a little sports talk to your reply! heyP would be proud of you! ------------------ "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever."
Juan, My sources may have not been correct, but on Lenin, I've seen many sources that say he used Jewish ideoligies. I think I was responding to Max, because he took a shot at the Islamic community talking about their bombings I think as if that represents some part of their religion, and I was just trying to make a point that someone can take something out of a religion and horribly misinterprate it, and it doesn't have to represent the ideas of that religion at all. I never said Hitler represented Christianity, just that he assigned culpability to unclear passages from the Bible that his crazy mind interpreted the wrong way. I'll agree with you that Hitler's actions were probably not extremely religiously related, even though he did work closely with the Roman Catholic Church during that time. And I apologize for putting Christians. I should have said Christian,and I guess it wasn't a good example since he was crazy, and aside from that, I wasn't implying that Hitler represented Christian ideoligies at all. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 19, 2001).] [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 19, 2001).]
In a post-Holocaust world I don't know how any thinking person can really believe they have "a personal relationship" with God as a lot of modern Christians believe. God, if in existence, does not care about human suffering, cannot do anything about human suffering, or is misrepresented by human religion. For every Job analogy I will respond with the reality of Auschwitz. There is no logical reason to choose Christianity over Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, or Zoroastrianism (pick your ism) other than cultural background. The tenants are essentially the same. I think the leap of faith is essential and I think people should believe whatever fufills them, but Christians have essentially ruled the world for 2,000 years. How much different is it from ancient Rome today? I believe in human faith, itself. God maybe the universe, but I think like the universe, God is, at best, indifferent to you and I. -Elvis, who does believe in gravity ------------------
