Speaking of 'smut' on TV...I had my niece over my house the other day with her family and other friends. We had I think UPN or some other local channel on TV, but had the VCR working at the moment. It was about 11pm or so at the time, and she was sitting in front of the TV watching her favorite cartoon videos. Anyways, as soon as we turn off the VCR, then all of a sudden I find naked girls jumping around, kissing each other, and doing all kinds of sexual acts in a "Girls Gone Wild" commercial. Obviously, I immediately changed the channel (to 14, which is Christian TV) and was just royally pissed afterwards. My neice is about 6, so she is not that young, and I think she was shocked by what she saw, didn't really kno to make of it I guess, don't know how to explain it to her (It's not like I can tell her "Look sweetie, there are sluts out there!") Anyways, I was just pissed off when that happened, I guess I will check next time to make sure that my TV is "kid-friendly" when she is around
Are those facts you listed any different than for any other religion? Can govt. buildings various parts of the Koran, or the Torah? Can we say the names of any other gods in a pledge? That isn't anything being asked of Christians that isn't asked of any other religion. 'Under God' wasn't a traditional part of the pledge and was added in just a few decades ago. In addition the right to say that part of the pledge was upheld. Those that wanted to get rid of it were definitely in the minority in this country. It must be tough to feel attacked when you are in the large majority and a small minority challenges something. In addition how many gas station attendents were killed because some rednecks thought they were Christian? That did happen to a member of another religion. How many Christians get accused of murdering the central figure of a different religion in this country? How many Christians have the symbol of a group who tried to wipe out their every member of Christianity routinely painted on their places of worship? The list goes on and on, of ways that practioners of other faiths face much tougher conditions in this country than Christians do. With Christians occupying almost every seat of power, and maintaining a large majority in the U.S. I just can't feel to sorry the plight of Christians in this country in as far as our religion is being attacked. This nation was founded on freedom of religion and not on the beliefs of a particular religeon. This nation was founded on Greek and Roman models of democracy. Their are Christians who are pro choice and those who are not. So either way on that debate will alienate some Christians.
If Christians' grip on culture hegmony is so strong, you'd think we would do a better job of preventing the removal of prayer from schools amongst other things, and push our agenda across more aggressivelyl. Last time I checked though, it's against the law in some places to display "Christmas" instead of "Xmas", the courts are still brooding over the lawsuit to remove the word "God" from the pledge, etc. I could go on
Except that no one is banning the personal displays of religion and as I said before I would be one of the first to argue against a ban on personal and private displays of religion. If this is a government of all the people religion as an undefinable unquantifiable and inherently divisive belief system is very problematic. Its the situation where we either allow every religion, ie the Satanist get to set up a Halloween Pentagram at City Hall, or we separate church and state. You're free to practice your religion, you're free to display your religious symbols on your own person and on your own property and you're even free to proclaim your religion in public under freedom of speech. What you shouldn't expect though is to have your religious symbols displayed on government property where in they become associated with symbols and mechanisms of authority. People like Supernavt are complaining that Christians are being forced to accept other religions yet there isn't efforts or court cases to get symbols of other religions displayed on public property or have prayers of other religions being officially sanctioned in schools. Christianity is just being treated as other religions not less. Its only that Christianity has gotten special treatment over other religions in this country for so long that Christians feel persecuted.
One could asks if whites have been the majority and have an ethnic hegemony you'd think they would do a better job of preventing legislation that benefits ethnic minorities. Times change and the makeup of the country changes. The reason why the governmental displays of Christian symbols didn't cause such a stir was because practically everyone was Christian. It wasn't that long ago that the controversy was the display of Catholic vs. Protestant symbols. Its taken a greater awareness that the country has become more diverse to wake people up to what I believe is the Constitutionally proper understanding of the relationship between church and state. At a time where Christianity was ubiquitous there was limited controversy regarding the display of Christianity, for instance at one time the term "Christian" was synomomous with "civilized", because there was no one else pointing out that Christianity is getting preferred treatment. Once we have more people of other religions in this country then its more obvious that one religion over others is getting preferential treatment. The Founders understood this and which is why they wrote the First Ammendment forbidding government establishment of religion and why Jefferson wrote about "the wall of separation between church and state." It wasn't that they wanted to ban religion but to allow the free practice of religion without governmental bias. The difference is at the time when the Christianity was ubiquitous it was a concern about the different denominations of Christianity whereas now that Christianity isn't ubiquitous, though still a majority, its extended to all religions.
Sorry if it came off as harsh. I'd be happy to give some examples - I'll use supernavts list: Saying "God" in the pledge Why should an atheist be forced to acknowledge "God" when pledging to the country? The original pledge never had those words. How does this fit in with the US mantra of separation of church and state? Surely you acknowledge it is a startling contradiction... the fight for the sanctity of marriage Texas is voting on this right now. Why should the state care who marries who? This is definitely an instance of chrisitans on the attack - they have utilized poltical influence to legislate a religious ideology. I don't care if some chruch's don't want to marry gay people - but why should the state restrict something based solely on a church position? What about the church's that don't have any problem with gay marriages? Either marriage is a religious ceremony - which implies the state should be indifferrent, or it is a civil ceremony, in which case the state should have to treat all parties equally. I don't understand why some christians see this as an "attack" - no one is advocating forcing your church to marry gay couples. removing a statue of the Ten Commandments from a courthouse See Shishir and Franchise's arguments. the “pro life” fight I think this is a good argument from Supernavt. There is persecution of both sides - and I don't necessarily agree with either. Complex debate - to understate. the fight for student lead prayers in school Pray all you want - but don't force everyone to hear it on public property. Students could walk across the street and give sermons for all I care - just keep it off the school. Alternatively, offer a student led prayer for every represented religion. the continued battle to keep smut off of TV in primetime hours Perfect example of the inverse. Some people like smut. Other's don't. Of course no one is forcing you to watch it, but that doesn't stop people from going to insane lengths to censor it. How is anyone persecuting the christian viewpoint here? Turn off your TV, change the channel - how hard is that? Meh - I'd be happy to supply copious links if you like. But my point is that Supernavt's "attack" statement is misleading. There are attacks on chrisitan ideology, but only in as much as it is being forced (attempted anyhow) on those who don't necessarily agree with it.
Svpernaut - I find it highly amusing that those points are considered "Christian" in your mind. As if someone who is Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Zoroastrian, etc., wants their *kids* to see "smut" on TV. As if any of those people actually disagrees with the *morality* espoused by the Ten Commandments. As for the sanctity of marriage, you have your opinion, clearly. The people who you seem to despise on the "other side" believe in the sanctity of it as well, just that the definition is a little more inclusive (or skewed, depending on your opinion). If you can't wrap your head around that, you'll never have a legitimate dialogue regarding the issue. Your belief that Christians are being attacked in the US is exactly why such a reactionary response seems to occur from the "religious right" in this country. A discussion is not an attack. Legislation is not an attack. Dialogue is not an attack. (And if you own any stock or mutual funds, you are funding Hollywood, so you're part of the problem regarding that little point. Good luck with that.)
Assuming you're right about how Christianity isn't being singled out. What would be the reaction to a school banning Muslim females from wearing headdresses? Would the outrage be equal to a law targeting Christians? Or perhaps a law that bans Muslims from praying at 4am because they are too loud. I'm not disagreeing with your points made above, nor agreeing with them. Just wondering what you think the "level of outrage" woudl be as compared to something targeting Christians
Ok I'll respond to this then =) While I would prefer for the word "God" to be in the pledge, the United States and all other countries are by Christian definition to be secular countries. There is no physical kingdom of God, merely spiritual one. I do not want a theocracy to be running the government, so taking this word out actually doesn't bother me. I merely brought it up before to show that Christians perhaps don't have such a strong grip as people think. This is something most religions would "attack", not just Christianity. I dont know why the state of Texas is restricting gay marriages, but I dont think its based on the Church standing of any kind. It's simple politics, if they feel their constituents are against it, they'll go against it. If the Church is vehemently against it, but 80% of the population is for it, you can bet your life that the state will be for it also. The "political influence" that the Christians have is the same influence that atheists have available to them. The left wing movement was in full effect in the 70s. I don't think anyone was complaining about Christian Political influence at that time. It's fine with me if the Ten Commandments aren't displayed and shoved down other people's throats. I'm pro-life morally, but the law says that its legal. This is one issue which I feel Kerry spoke for me and for a lot of moderates. Something inside you tells you that this is wrong, yet at the same time, a women should have free will to choose what she wants to do with her body. God gave us the same choice to screw up our lives as we wish. student lead prayers are just stupid. I used to feel differently about this when I was younger. However, as I'm approaching my 30's, I am beginning to understand why parents want the TV industry to tone down its smut level. No matter how closely you watch your kids, inavriably they will gain access to the TV at some point. I want my kids to grow up understanding the ways of the world that I've brought thrm into, but at the same time, I want them to know about the alternatives to emulating what they see on TV. Unfortunately I don't believe TV offers a wide enough selection of alternatives. It's also not as simple to merely say "oh just tell your kids they can't watch." I may do that, but my future kids will goto school and have to deal with their classmates who label them uncool and shun them for not knowing the details of the latest Teen Trash episode.
wow...this is exactly why i feel like the church has been hijacked by politics. here's a woman who was dealing with the death of her husband...with her own mortality...and she found peace in Jesus Christ. so much so, that's she's chosen to devote her gift (writing) to him. and all we can talk about are ten commandments monuments and the pledge of allegiance. i have always thought rice to be a REMARKABLE writer. The Witching Hour and Interview With the Vampire are two of the finest books I've ever read from any genre. Seriously...I loved them. I am so happy that God has touched her life and her heart in a way she might have thought impossible before.
When you thik about it, what better way to turn off people to Christ than to shove it down their throat? What better way to get people to be non-believers than to flood them with this stuff constantly? If the Christian right doesn't be careful, their current push into politics will either be successful and make them to be the modern version of the Middle Ages Catholic church, or be unsuccessful and alienate more people from them. Either way, the backlash will be there and Christianity will lose more potential believers who might otherwise have chosen to ignore Christ's message because of the religious hijackers who've politicized it.
I think that it is awesome that giddy got attacked by two Christians in this thread for a perceived bashing of Christianity. That is pure, unadulterated awesomeness. And, apparently, they don't understand how foolish it makes them look. Don't worry, giddy, I am sure one day you will find religion and not be such an evil atheist.
Let's compare apples to apples. Banning a headscarf targets Muslims exclusively. Banning "God" in the Pledge targets everyone who believes in God. If we were to ban students from wearing crosses in schools, the outrage here would be about the same as the outrage of banning a headscarf for Muslim girls. If a law was passed banning Christians from attending service on Sunday, the outrage would be about the same as banning a Muslim from praying at 4 AM. As mentioned in previous posts, the items that you feel are targeting Christians are in fact targeting all religious people. As a Muslim, I most definitely believe that this is one nation under God. I would rather say that in the Pledge than omit it. Muslim parents and Jewish parents do not like their children to watch crap on TV just like Christian parents. With respect to the sanctity of marriage, no Muslim mosque will officiate over the wedding of two people of the same sex. Thus, these issues that are being mentioned are not solely Christian issues. Subsequently, an attack on them are not attacks on Christians exclusively.
ok I'll go with the argument about the headress to the cross. However, I think the analogy you made to the Sunday service thing is not the same. banning Sunday service would be the same as banning Muslims from attending Mosque, it would not be the same as banning 4 am prayer (which is loud enough to wake people up sometims, as there is a large group of them). This message is really more for Super. As stated in my earlier post, I mostly agreed with rhada's points. However, is it racial profiling if the majority of people in prison are black? Some would say no, that's just the numbers. Others would say yes, there is a disproportionate of blacks on death row and in prison, so yes it does seem like the law is targeting blacks. Apply it to Christianity also, I believe there is such a thing as reigious profiling as much as there is racial profiling
If his title had been "Another Foolish Chinese person" or "Another Foolish White person", would you fault a Chinese or white person for coming on here and saying something?
