Poor little Indonesian girls get beheaded for being of a different faith while the Muslims get a missionary with bad breath exhorting John 3:16...
I wish extremism could be wiped out, DD, but you know the saying, "violence begets more violence", and history has shown that to be true. In this specific case, those who killed those poor girls should be hunted down, put on public trial, and made an example of by beheading them in a public court (essentially, giving them the death penalty, which Islam fully endorses in the case of murder). I have no sympathy for those criminals, and those who incited them should also be held responsible (if that was the case here and they weren't acting on their own). I believe in 'eye for an eye' as well, unless the family/loved ones of the victims decide to forfeit their right to try/punish the aggressors.
While I agree with this, the violence seems to be mostly one sided. All coming from the extremist Islamic fanatics. I would understand if Christians were doing the same thing to them, but frankly they aren't. Turning the other cheek only works for so long, I think that is why GWB believes he is doing the right thing. I am not saying I agree with him, but I think his kind (right wingers) have reached their boiling point and are hitting back, and hard. Iran needs to be very very careful..... DD
Actually, you're wrong from a historical standpoint. If anything, the current violence coming from Muslim extremists is the 'backlash' you're speaking od, not the recent Bush response. The only difference is that the 'battle' used to be more covert in nature, only now it's much more pronounced and the 'lines' have been drawn, with each side involved directly in the battle going public about their views/grievances.
Hard to say what is backlash, and what isn't. I only know that innocent people are dying and by and large the terrorists are protected by a good portion of their community, be it out of fear, or a similar belief, and it is the latter that is the biggest problem. If terrorism was more rampant in Christian society, I would hope that they would be rooted out quickly, although Northern Ireland is a case where it did not happen. DD
I am making an observation, not passing judgement. I am not saying Islam is bad. I am not saying Muslims need to abandon their faith. I'm saying what on earth is going on??? And stop it with the excuses. I mean, do you really deny that there is currently a very vast movement of Islamic extremists all over the world that's using terrorism??? That's not a judgement guy - it's a factual observation that I find very disconcerting - and I am shocked that it does bother you at all. If it was isolated to one sect, or one nation...I wouldn't think anything of it. But it's across all sects and across nearly every Muslim nation with the exception of Malayasia. What I am rejecting mr tiger is not the Islamic Faith, but rather the reason for this pan-Islamic violence. What I have distaste for is the whole sweeping it under the rug and the avoidance of truly confronting by examining the elements that are resulting in these fanatical lines of thinking - and not just blaming the west - all that does is feed the problem. If these fanatics are just that...then don't you think that statements from the Iranian gov't and all the anti-Jewish and "Death to America" marches feed the fire??? Are they in effect being supported by that....and by the excuses you make on their behalf? That is what I am rejecting and I have distaste for.
Tell me where I have made excuses for them, you seem to have more in common with the right-wingers you seem to dislike than you think (the whole 'if you provide historical evidence as to why we are targeted by terrorists then you are justifying their actions' attitude). Yes, the fanatics in the Muslim world concern me and worry me, and I believe it's a problem that should be addressed. I agree with you, I am very much in favor of examining the underlying causes of this extremism. However, you seem to be dismissing the "blaming the West" argument as one of the legitimate reasons behind that violence/backlash. Is that what you're saying? Are you arguing that the West is NOT responsible in part for the suffering of Muslims around the world? That certainly IS a legitimate argument that could be supported by facts. There are definitely other reasons that could be cited, but that's a legitimate one that you should not be dismissive of if you want an honest discussion.
dude, if outsiders have a problem with me defending my religion, and not accepting every accusation thrown at them, then to hell with them. I have my beliefs, and my opinions, and I value them more than those of "outsiders". All I am trying to do is point out that we musnt go with the flow on every accusation, take a step back, calm down, think about the problem, then try to solve it. thats not what is happening, anything happens, its the muslims, they are terrorists, lock em up... this same bias that outsiders have against muslims is what muslims in general dislike about westerners. they feel that they have been pre judged, no matter what they do, westerners are gunna stick together and try to rid the word of them... you attack someone, its natural tendency to go on the defensive...
Do you really believe this? While I agree with most of what you say about there being no good way to "get at the root of the problem", this seems a bit extreme to me, and I hope it's an oversimplification of the way you actually feel. Because this statement could easily be read as being against something as basic as giving to charities. For instance, I don't live anywhere near there, I don't know anyone there, so why should I donate to tsunami victims? And what exactly constitutes your immediate environment? a 5 foot radius? Your city? Your country? Of course, I'm not saying you're a cold or insensitive person or anything like that, and I realize that I've taken your statement strictly literally. I'm just saying that throughout history, many people have disagreed with that particular statement, and the world is usually better off for it. And I feel like that type of attitude, at least as I read it, makes it easier for bad situations to continue.
Rooting out the problem has to start with the Muslim leaders recognizing and dealing with the problem. Right now, the Iranian Mullahs are supporting these terrorists, either through inaction, or through directly speaking the same company line. Death to Israel etc.... Why are they doing this? Well to keep their general public from looking at the true problems in their country. The corruption, the lying, the hypocrisy. In essense they are saying "don't look behind the green curtain, look over there, it is the West that is causing you to live in squalor". I can not understand how religios leaders can say "Death to a race of people" especially when the mix of blood between the races is essentially the same, they both come from the same family tree. It is insane.......when children grow up, oppressed and are taugh religous garbage from their mullahs, their schools, their government, how the hell are they ever going to learn to think for themselves.... Open up the culture, and let them think for themselves, when that happens, these theocracies will be exposed for what they really are......men trying desperatly to control the ignorant masses and keep themselves in power. DD
Countries with large numbers of muslims have to take into consideration what the rest of the world thinks of them. They are pretty low in the world order and are not particularly popular. Aside from the West, there is conflict with muslims in most asian countries: China, Phillipines, Thailand, India, Russia, etc.
An Iranian family choosing to become Christians several years ago before being baptized in a church in Tehran are now being ordered to repatriate from Turkey. The family, consisting of widow Mrs. Zivar Khademian, her two grown sons Hossein and Kazem Moini, and her 19-year-old daughter Fatemeh Moini, left Iran and have lived in Turkey since January 2003. There, they applied for refugee status through the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (UNHCR). After reviewing their case several times, it was rejected in February 2005 and is not subject to further appeal. On October 5th, the family was given 15 days by Turkish authorities to voluntarily return to Iran. If they do not, they will be forcibly deported to Iran. Great concern has been given to this case because the Christian family faces severe consequences upon their return to their native country, where they were persecuted for their faith. While in Iran, Kazem was imprisoned for six months after police raided his family’s home and found Christian materials. His release was granted on the condition that he divulge the names of those who converted to Christianity. Meanwhile, his mother and sister suffered police harassment and his brother went into hiding. Because Zivar was charged with apostasy through an October 2004 Iranian court summons, she could face the death penalty upon her return. Also, her daughter Fatemeh could be forced to marry a member of the Islamic militia if she repatriates because her now deceased father promised her betrothal. link
When Republicans say it it's evil... EDIT: Also, you fail to realize that standing up for your religion's shortcomings simply because it's your religion is dangerous. As a Catholic, I don't defend Priest molestation simply because it's my religion. This is the difference.
I agree with you in regards to Iran, the leadership is corrupt and hellbent on staying power, although I am positive that the 'masses' don't like them much, but in the perception of an outside threat, people will unite regardless of domestic politics, and that's what I am seeing in Iran right now.
Errr, try again! That's a false analogy, because Catholicism (the actual religion) does NOT promote child molestation, much like Islam (the religion) does not promote terrorism or suicide bombings. Those are 'cultural' shortcomings, soceital shortcomings, but I wouldn't call them 'shortcomings in your religion', because that implies that the religion itself tolerates these actions.
It's politics, it has nothing to do with the EU or any other organization. Turkey and Iran have had somewhat tense, but good relations and I don't think Turkey wants to upset the Iranians because of refugees. If the EU is really concerned about them, they can just take them in and give them refugee status (we do it all the time right here in the USA). BTW, personally speaking, I think Turkey is making a tremendous mistake by joining the EU. While it might be in their economics interests, in the long-run I believe they will come to regret it and/or pullout from the Union. The EU are forcing the Turks to comply with their "secular humanist" agenda and I think the Turkish people will revolt agains that, much like there is a cultural revolt from Christians in this country against the ACLU and the secularist agenda.
When has there EVER been peace? Is that something the Muslims are solely responsible for, or does it 'take two to tango'?
I cannot speak for anyone else here, but I definitely agree with you. I absolutely do not stand up for the shortcomings of Muslims just because I am Muslim. I have always denounced the actions of the fringe and continue to do so today. However, just like I do not think all Catholic men play with little boys, I would like for people to understand that not all Muslims are bad people and that the faith itself does not teach the actions of these radicals. I know the Bible doesn't tell Priests to molest little boys. Surely you would think that Priests are knowledgable on the faith. They know what is condemned and what is condoned better than most. Yet, in spite of this, they themselves were/are engaged in this repulsive act. However, even with that, I know better than to think that Catholicism condones child molestation. I just ask for the same courtesy to be extended to Muslims. Please understand that not all who claim to understand the faith really do. Please understand that "death to America." and "wiping out Israel" are more political agendas than they are religious. If you want to learn about how the Islamic faith teaches its followers to treat non-believers, read up on it from a nonbiased source. Don't go to an evangelical website and by the same token don't go to a website written by Muslims. Get the account of a nonbiased historian. See how Muslims in history have treated non-believers. Read up on the Islamic faith from a person who has no interest in the matter. When we went into Iraq, we said that it was political and not religious. Saddam Hussein was a despot and a tyrant who happened to be Muslim. Extend the same analogy across the board. When Iranians chant "death to Israel,", it's political. When savages behead little girls, blame it on their politics. Don't say it is because of Islam. When suicide bombers bomb buses, it's political. Just like how the IRA bombed Northern Ireland. It was religiously motivated, but ultimately political. I have absolutely no problem at all denouncing the savages who behead little children or blow up buses. If you denounce them, I will support you 110%. They are wrong and they deserve what's coming to them. However, I do have a problem when people say that the Islamic faith teaches this and that these actions are representative of the faith as a whole. That's where my problem lies.
