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this sunday beyond the glory :steve francis

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by cuneo77, Oct 18, 2005.

  1. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    When is the BTG Vernon Maxwell? That guy deserves a story.
     
  2. codell

    codell Contributing Member

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    1) Never said defended McGrady or called him a "winner" for not giving it his all.

    2) I've always defended Steve and respected him while he was here, because he did play hard and he did play with heart. Never faulted Steve for his effort (except for the Super Bowl fiasco).

    3) You can sugarcoat it all you want. If Steve thinks is worst year is the one year has tasted the playoffs, then he is entitled to that opinion. He obviously feels his better years were when he put up better stats and didn't make the playoffs. Fine. But to me, as a fan, that is awfully confusing since a player's ultimate goal, I would think, would be to a) Get into the playoffs b) Succeed in the playoffs and c) Win a title. There are a ton of players, throughout history, who did indeed sacrifice stats, for better team play and ended up being remembered as better players for it.

    My best memory of Steve was the back to back 3 point plays against the Lakers in the playoffs. The 1 game we won. I wish Steve would remember that, and remember the crowd going nuts and set that as his goal, rather than averaging 22 pts instead of 16.
     
  3. codell

    codell Contributing Member

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    But it sure as hell shouldn't make it his worst year. I seem to remember a couple of years where his teams were 14 and 26 games below .500.
     
  4. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    First of all individual success is defined by winning and individual play. The program isn't about Steve Francis's career with the Rockets, its about Steve Francis.

    Secondly, you ignore the fact that isn't even the most wins the Rockets won with Steve here. They won 45 and 43 games in other years which would have gotten them to the playoffs. The only difference is that other teams didn't do as well, so to define it just by making the playoffs is silly.

    Did Steve have his best year because the conference wasn't as good as it was those other seasons when he did have good individual success as well as winning as many games. The only difference in making the playoffs is the lack of success in other teams, its not like the team was significantly better.

    Was the team better? Of course not.

    Criticizing him for that statement is reaching at best.
     
  5. codell

    codell Contributing Member

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    I agree. Individually, he didn't have a good year, but team wise, he did. More importantly, no matter how many wins it took, his team and he made the playoffs. Sorry, just don't see how that can be one's "worst" year.

    Not ignoring it, because its not a fact. Rockets, with SF, never won more than 45 games prior to Steve's last year here.

    But they didn't.

    Not defining it by JUST making the playoffs. Im saying it shouldn't be considered his "worst" year.

    Again, never said it was Steve's best year. And I could care less if the team won the same amount of games and didn't make the playoffs previously. The fact that his team DID make the playoffs, and he DID get that experience, SHOULD make him a better/wiser player because of that, especially since they won a game where he had a huge hand in sealing the win, should not make that his "worst" year.

    Having watched the Rockets, I would, no doubt, say the 2003-2004 team was much better than 2000-2001 team. We were more well rounded, mainly due to our defense.
     
  6. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost not wrong
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    Watching it right now.. this thing is really portraying him as immature and selfish..
     
  7. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    and again, this is nitpicking. the documentary is about Francis. Individually it was his worst year. It was his worst statistically, it was his worst public relations wise, and oh yeah, it was the year they shipped him out of a city he loved playing in.

    I'm sure if he was asked about finally making the playoffs he would have said he was happy to get that monkey off his back. And that's the second problem, you're making an assumption about how he felt about the team success.
     
  8. codell

    codell Contributing Member

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    You said individual success is about winning and individual play, no? If so, why are you giving his stats so much weight over the team winning and making the playoffs?

    Do you seriously feel that his 34 win, rookie season, is somehow, better, than his 45 win/playoff season? (look at his stats ....besides shooting %, there aren't any large differences)

    Unfortunately, he brought alot of this on himself. I would think we can all agree with that.

    He didn't say anything about team success. He called it his "worst year". Its not like he said, "it was my worst year statistically" and then put in a disclaimer about the team success. Its not hard to make the assumption that the "worst year" comment, in context with the rest of the comments, is about his season, as a whole, not just individual stats.

    He clearly implied that "worst year" mean, he wouldn't go through that again if he had a choice.
     
    #68 codell, Oct 25, 2005
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2005
  9. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    I'm sure he was happy about his rookie year. He split the Rookie of Year Award. A Rookie isn't expected to carry his team to the playoffs. Again, you're reaching.
     
    #69 pgabriel, Oct 25, 2005
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2005
  10. codell

    codell Contributing Member

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    I think you are the one reaching. Its a shame you both feel that making the playoffs, with below average stats, is such an albatross that its worse than NOT making the playoffs and winning only 28 or 34 games, with better stats.

    Hell, I would even think his migraine season, that kept him out of a 1/3 of our games and had him hurting in the rest, where we only won 28, would be worst than his last year here.

    Like I said earlier ..."confusing"
     
  11. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    Again you're making an assumption about how he felt about team success, and I'm making an assumption. But like I said, the documentary is about Steve Francis. Its a pretty easy argument to see how his last season here could be his worst. The only thing you have is playoffs, and even with that it wasn't their best win season. They made the playoffs because the conference got worse not because he had his "best" season.
     
  12. TheRaven

    TheRaven Contributing Member

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    Francis was a hell of a player at both SJC and Maryland. He was straight off the AAU courts when the Ravens got him, raw as could be but with talent to burn. Gernander (the coach) has always had a knack for handling the players who had the proverbial million dollar gifts but ten-cent head. In practices, a few of which I got to see, he was never allowed to be bigger than the team and he was able to meld into a team concept yet still shine.
    I really think that by the time he got to the NBA, that was lost, and he was now labeled "The Franchise", the load he could never carry. Some can and some can't.
     
  13. codell

    codell Contributing Member

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    My assumption is reasonable based on YOUR definition of individual success (based on individual goals and team goals).

    Its actually an awfully hard argument. One year you sit out 1/3 of the games, almost all the rest of the games, you fight an illness, your team suffers and wins only 28 games. Versus: Your team wins 45 games, your stats suffer, but you make the playoffs, become a better defender under your new coach. Oh yeah. Its easy to say which one was worse. No doubt about it PG. And you wonder why you solely own the title of Francis apologist.

    BTW, why do you keep saying it wasn't their best win season? It was (45 wins, tied with another year) AND his team made the playoffs.
     
  14. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    First off I'm not the only one who picked up on your ridiculous criticism. Second of all I'm not the apologist, my main point was however you feel about the statement you would have to be a true ass to pick out that one statement in a fairly uplifting story of what the guy had to overcome to criticize.

    No, "gee I understand why he has such a huge chip on his shoulder." No, "its amazing he worked his way up to a number two draft pick after not even playing h.s. ball and having to take the hard route" No, you picked out a quote that you have to reach on to make a criticism.
     
  15. codell

    codell Contributing Member

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    And I wasn't the only one pointing out some of the negatives on the show so quite acting like I am out here on some sort of island by myself.

    Apparently you miss the whole concept of "beyond the glory". Ya know, talking about highs and lows of an athlete. If the show was meant for us to focus on only the good things, then they wouldn't talk about or interview Steve about the bad things.

    I give him full credit for emerging from a tough life to achieve what he has achieved. That doesn't make him exempt from general critique now does it? And its far from a reach. Thats just your biased opinion since you can't stand anyone giving SF grief over his time spend with the Rockets.

    Worst year ...oh the horror ...I had to play more under control ...I had to play defense ....I had to sacrifice shots .....but I got to make the playoffs ......

    He doesn't get it. 10 cent brain indeed.
     
  16. kountzer

    kountzer Member

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    I just watched this particular Beyond the Glory, on a tivo type recording. It give good insight in to Steve Francis and what makes up him and his game, both the good and the bad of it all. I hope he puts it all together and takes his game and his team to another level - hopefully not against the Rockets though.

    ~ Kountzer ~
     
  17. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    I don't care about people criticizing Steve for things that are tangible, not playing defense, turnovers, shot clock management or whatever else you want to criticize him on. b****ing about not wanting to go to Vancouver, the SuperBowl deal, I don't defend him on those things. Its when people take statements and twist them around like he doesn't care about winning, or care about team is what I will defend him about.
     
  18. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    There's more to a year than making the playoffs. That year also included the fans going against him for the Super Bowl debacle and being traded out of town right after leading the team to the playoffs (not to mention playing his ass off in the series and, despite the 4-1 loss, they could've easily won that thing).

    You can argue that he has a 10 cent brain, but I'm guessing he wouldn't be the only player who would consider that his worst year if he went through everything he did.
     
  19. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    Steve is smarter than Marbury.
     
  20. yaopao

    yaopao Contributing Member

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    McGrady put up some of his lowest stats in recent years last year with us and you never heard him complain about it because he was glad to be playing for a winner. I don't really see how you can compare he and Francis. McGrady's a much better player and has a much better attitude.
     

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