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What was the British SAS doing in Basra?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by tigermission1, Oct 19, 2005.

  1. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    Wow! I don't know what to make of this article and others I have come across. The allegations made here are very, very explosive and very serious, which could very well (if true or believed to be true) for the Shi'a majority in the south to actually join the resistance against the Brit/American coalition, which would spell disaster for us in Iraq.

    Apparently, many Iraqi Shi'as have already bought into this as 'fact', and they point to arrest of these 'secret agents' that carried around the same bombs used in the attacks on Shi'a civilians, which is in turn blamed on the Sunnis.

    It's too disturbing, but it wouldn't be unprecedented (if true) in the case of the British.

    What was the British SAS doing in Basra?

    By Chris Marsden
    28 September 2005


    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/sep2005/basr-s28.shtml

    The September 19 arrest of two undercover Special Air Service officers in Basra, traveling in an unmarked car containing weapons and explosives, has led to numerous accusations that they were acting as agents provocateurs.

    The BBC reported that the SAS men’s car contained “weapons, explosives and communications gear,” before claiming that these were “standard kit for British special forces.”

    But in a September 27 article, one of the more serious reporters on the Middle East, Robert Fisk, wrote in the Independent, “Remember how we were told that our immense experience of ‘peace-keeping’ in Northern Ireland had allowed us to get on better with the Iraqis in the south than our American cousins further north?”

    Replying to his own question, he wrote, “I don’t actually remember us doing much ‘peacekeeping’ in Belfast after about 1969—the rest, I recall, was about biffing the IRA—but in any case the myth was burned out on the uniforms of British troops this week.

    “Indeed, much of the war in Northern Ireland appeared to revolve around the use of covert killings and SAS undercover operatives who blew away IRA men in ambushes.”

    After making this correct observation of how British imperialism stirred up sectarian tensions and carried out political assassinations in order to preserve its rule over its oldest colonial possession, Fisk continues, “Which does raise the question, doesn’t it, as to just what our two SAS lads were doing cruising around Basra in Arab dress with itsy-bitsy moustaches and guns? Why did no one ask? How many SAS men are in southern Iraq? Why are they there? What are their duties? What weapons do they carry? Whoops! No one asked.”

    Fisk does not say directly what he believes the SAS was up to. However, in the Arab media the accusations of the Mehdi army led by Moqtada al-Sadr and others that the two officers were acting as provocateurs are discussed openly.

    Al Jazeera quoted Sheik Hassan al-Zarqani, spokesman for the Mehdi army, stating, “What our police found in their car was very disturbing—weapons, explosives, and a remote control detonator. These are the weapons of terrorists. We believe these soldiers were planning an attack on a market or other civilian targets.”

    The news agency continues, “What needs to be given more attention in the wake of recent clashes that broke out in Basra following the arrest of two British soldiers last week is whether those commandos were planning an attack or not, whether their car did have explosives or not. The answer to this question is crucial for the future of Iraq and Bush’s so-called ‘war on terror.’

    “If allegations that the soldiers’ car was loaded with explosives were proved, this will strengthen the theory suggesting that the British and American intelligence is involved in the persistent and violent acts of ‘terror’ spreading across Iraq, which means that the current ‘counterinsurgency’ efforts involve the premeditated killing of innocent civilians to achieve the US policy objectives. Isn’t this the very definition of terrorism?”

    Regarding the issue of explosives, as well as citing the report by the BBC’s Paul Wood, Al Jazeera also notes a report by the Chinese news service Xinhuanet stating that the SAS “soldiers were using a civilian car packed with explosives.”

    It also cites a report by Jonathan Finer of the Washington Post’s foreign office, stating, “Monday’s clashes stemmed from the arrest by Iraqi police on Sunday of two Britons, whom Iraqi police accused of planting bombs.”

    Amongst a number of reports from Syrian and Turkish news sources, it singles out a Syrian correspondent in Baghdad, Ziyad al-Munajjid. He writes: “Many analysts and observers here had suspicions that the occupation was involved in some armed operations against civilians and places of worship and in the killing of scientists. But those were only suspicions that lacked proof. The proof came today through the arrest of the two British soldiers while they were planting explosives in one of the Basra streets.

    “This proves, according to observers, that the occupation is not far from many operations that seek to sow sedition and maintain disorder, as this would give the occupation the justification to stay in Iraq for a longer period.”

    Al Jazeera also quotes a report in Britain’s Telegraph citing Baghdad Muslim cleric Abdel al-Daraji’s statement that “Britain was plotting to start an ethnic war by carrying out mass-casualty bombings targeting Shiite civilians and then blaming the attacks on Sunni groups.

    “Everyone knows the occupiers’ agenda. Their intention is to keep Iraq an unstable battlefield so they can exploit their interests in Iraq.”

    The Telegraph article is in fact an attempt to refute such allegations as a “smear campaign” designed to “stoke growing anti-British sentiment in southern Iraq.” But the Telegraph offers no alternative explanation as to why the SAS would be carrying substantial quantities of explosives and makes no attempt to deny such reports.

    Similarly the BBC’s claim that high explosives are standard issue for the SAS raises more questions than it provides answers.

    Why would explosives be required for any other type of undercover operation than the manufacture and planting of bombs?

    The only alternative explanation so far advanced was in the pages of the Sunday Times, which wrote a number of related articles claiming that the SAS was involved in an extensive counterinsurgency operation targeting Iranian-backed militias.

    The two officers were “engaged in a ‘secret war’ against insurgents bringing sophisticated bombs into the country from Iran.” The Times cited “a source with knowledge of their activities,” claiming that the captured patrol was bringing “more tools and fire power” to a second patrol.

    The Times cites another source stating that “a 24-strong SAS team has been working out of Basra to provide a safety net to stop the bombers getting into the city from Iran. The aim is to identify routes used by insurgents and either capture or kill them.”

    There is clearly Iranian involvement in the Iraqi quagmire created by the United States’ and Britain’s illegal war of aggression. But again, why would an operation to prevent the movement of weapons across the Iraqi border involve explosives?

    The account by the Times does not mention explosives, but does cite an Iraqi police officer, Khaled Abdul Baqi, stating that “equipment that resembled a large remote control of sorts” was found inside the SAS men’s car.

    In any event, Britain’s semi-official denials count for very little in Basra. The response by the two undercover SAS officers to Iraqi police attempts to stop them at a checkpoint suggests that they had something sinister to hide. The two opened fire, reportedly killing a person and wounding several others, including police officers.

    The official explanation is that the army is now instructed to treat the local police force as part of the insurgency, because it is so infiltrated by militia groups. This was also the army’s attitude when it mounted a rescue operation of the two officers from the local police facility. Some 10 armoured personnel vehicles and a helicopter were used to storm the building and attack around a thousand demonstrators, incensed by the discovery of the SAS’s activities. The British Army used live fire and baton rounds in its assault, killing several people and injuring many more.

    In the immediate aftermath of September 19, British control of Basra is facing mounting popular opposition. There are widespread reports of demonstrations against the British. Local authorities have withdrawn cooperation with the occupation forces and the city’s anti-terrorist judge has issued an arrest warrant for the two SAS officers.

    Britain has rejected the legality of the arrest warrant and refused a compensation demand for the victims of the assault on the police facility. Instead, Defence Minister John Reid has said he intends to scrap the 25,000-strong police force in southern Iraq and “replace it with a new military-style unit capable of maintaining law and order.”

    Creating the conditions for such increased repression has always been an essential aim of the dirty tricks operations with which the SAS is associated.
     
  2. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    British "Undercover Soldiers" Caught driving Booby Trapped Car
    "They refused to say what their mission was."

    September 20, 2005
    GlobalResearch.ca
    The following Reuters report raises some disturbing questions.


    Why were undercover British "soldiers" wearing traditional Arab headscarves firing at Iraqi police?

    The incident took place just prior to a major religious event in Basra.

    The report suggests that the police thought the British soldiers looked "suspicious". What was the nature of their mission?

    Occupation forces are supposed to be collaborating with Iraqi authorities. Why did Britsh Forces have to storm the prison using tanks and armoured vehicles to liberate the British undercover agents?

    "British forces used up to 10 tanks " supported by helicopters "to smash through the walls of the jail and free the two British servicemen."

    Was there concern that the British "soldiers" who were being held by the Iraqi National Guard would be obliged to reveal the nature and objective of their undercover mission?

    A report of Al Jazeera TV, which preceeded the raid on the prison, suggests that the British undercover soldiers were driving a booby trapped car loaded with ammunition. The Al Jazeera report (see below) also suggests that the riots directed against British military presence were motivated because the British undercover soldiers were planning to explode the booby trapped car in the centre of Basra:

    [Anchorman Al-Habib al-Ghuraybi] We have with us on the telephone from Baghdad Fattah al-Shaykh, member of the Iraqi National Assembly. What are the details of and the facts surrounding this incident?

    [Al-Shaykh] In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate. There have been continuous provocative acts since the day before yesterday by the British forces against the peaceful sons of Basra. There have been indiscriminate arrests, the most recent of which was the arrest of Shaykh Ahmad al-Farqusi and two Basra citizens on the pretext that they had carried out terrorist operations to kill US soldiers. This is a baseless claim. This was confirmed to us by [name indistinct] the second secretary at the British Embassy in Baghdad, when we met with him a short while ago. He said that there is evidence on this. We say: You should come up with this evidence or forget about this issue. If you really want to look for truth, then we should resort to the Iraqi justice away from the British provocations against the sons of Basra, particularly what happened today when the sons of Basra caught two non-Iraqis, who seem to be Britons and were in a car of the Cressida type. It was a booby-trapped car laden with ammunition and was meant to explode in the centre of the city of Basra in the popular market. However, the sons of the city of Basra arrested them. They [the two non-Iraqis] then fired at the people there and killed some of them. The two arrested persons are now at the Intelligence Department in Basra, and they were held by the National Guard force, but the British occupation forces are still surrounding this department in an attempt to absolve them of the crime.

    [Al-Ghuraybi] Thank you Fattah al-Shaykh, member of the National Assembly and deputy for Basra.

    Text of report by Qatari Al-Jazeera satellite TV on 19 September (emphasis added)

    Is this an isolated incident or is part of a pattern?

    More significantly, have the occupation forces been involved in similar undercover missions? Syrian TV (Sept 19, 2005) reports the following:

    Ten Iraqis - seven police commandos, two civilians and a child - were killed and more than 10 others wounded in the explosion of two car bombs near two checkpoints in Al-Mahmudiyah and Al-Latifiyah south of Baghdad while hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were heading towards the city of Karbala to mark the anniversary of a religious event.

    And in a significant incident in the city of Basra, which is also marking the same religious event, Iraqi demonstrators set fire to two British tanks near a police station after Iraqi police had arrested two British soldiers disguised in civilian clothes for opening fire on police. Eight armoured British vehicles surrounded the police station before the eruption of the confrontations. A policeman at the scene said the two detained Britons were wearing traditional Iraqi jallabahs [loose cloaks] and wigs.

    An indepth independent inquiry should be ordered by Britain's House of Commons into the circumstances of this event.

    Michel Chossudovsky is Professor of Economics at the University of Ottawa and Director of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG), He is the author of America's "War on Terrorism", Global Research, 2005.
     
  3. basso

    basso Member
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    this characterization tells you all you need to know about this "story."
     
  4. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    Actually, it was also reported by the BBC, Reuters, and others. Fisk is only one of them, and even Juan Cole commented on it.

    As I said, I am not sure what to make of this, but some Shi'a leaders DID actually come out and make comments to Arab TV outlets to the effect of, "We knew the British were doing this but we had no confirmation until now". Moreover, what were those two British SAS agents doing? And more importantly, why did the British feel that it was urgent enough for them to get to that prison and essentially engage the IRaqi police as 'enemy combatants', destorying the jail and killing tens of people and resulting in many injuries? Logic tells me there is something 'fishy' there to say the least. Besides, these tactics WERE in fact used by British SAS agents in the past in the conflict with the IRA.

    Regardless, it's a very explosive story with lots of consequences for all sides involved.

    If the Shi'as start believing that this is the case, then they will turn against the coalition and will unite with the Sunni insurgency, which would be disasterous.
     
  5. Lobo

    Lobo Member

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    Find us a link to this story on a mainstream news organization website and we'll pay more attention. Sorry, but we're not going to take something published on the "World Socialist Web Site" or the "Centre for Globalization Research" too seriously.
     
  6. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    You mean since MSM is always accurate?

    As I said, this was also reported by the BBC and one of the articles above is says the report was taken from Reuters, cites the BBC, the Telegraph, the Independent, and the Times of London.

    Anyways, don't kill the messenger, I already said I don't know what to make of it, I am not trying to convince you if I am not convinced myself.
     
  7. Lobo

    Lobo Member

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    Of course not, but at least somewhat less biased then the two websites you're linking to.

    So find us a link...and good luck, because I did a search on "special air service basra explosives" on reuters.com and found nothing. The same search in Google finds nothing but left-wing sites which seem to be reporting the same story.

    Then your thread headline is pretty misleading...."What was the British SAS doing in Basra?" is not the same thing as saying "found an unsubstantiated rumor while surfing the Web that if true would be disturbing."
     
  8. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    No it's not. If you have read my threads in the past, I pretty much always use the article title as the thread headline, and didn't make an exception in this case. So it's just a habit.

    Anyways, the two SAS agents shooting at the Iraqi police and other bystanders when their vehicle was approached, as well as the consequential British assault of the police station IS a fact, not a 'rumor', and the BBC itself was the one that reported that. So how do you explain that event? If everything else is a 'rumor', then this part is a fact. Do you have any theories regarding this?
     
  9. Lobo

    Lobo Member

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    OK, since you refuse to post a link to any credible source, here is an article I found on CNN that pretty much sums up the situation. Take a look at this and tell me if you're still alarmed.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/09/21/iraq.britain0840/

    Iraq: Insurgents infiltrate police

    BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Insurgents have infiltrated Iraq's security forces, a senior Iraqi official said, as the fallout continued over British forces' use of armed vehicles to smash their way into a police station to rescue two undercover soldiers.

    The British government said it would not pull troops out of Iraq after the fury over the controversial rescue of two special forces soldiers arrested in Basra and allegedly handed over to local militia.

    Two Iraqis died in the violence, Reuters reported.

    Iraq's National Security Adviser, Dr Mouwafak al-Rubaie, said he did not know how far security forces had been undermined by insurgents.

    He told the BBC: "Our Iraqi security forces in general, police in particular, in many parts of Iraq, I have to admit, have been penetrated by some of the insurgents, some of the terrorists as well.

    "I can't deny this. We are putting in place a very scrupulous, very meticulous vetting procedure in the process of recruiting a new batch of police and Iraqi army, which will, if you like, clean our security forces as well as stop any penetration in future from the insurgents and terrorists."

    Al-Rubaie added: "I can't give you a percentage of the extent of the penetration, but I have to admit that the Iraqi security forces are penetrated, to what extent I don't know."

    Meanwhile U.S. officials revealed that nine Americans, including five soldiers, were killed by bombs in Iraq during Monday and Tuesday.

    Four troops, assigned to the 2nd Marine Division, were killed Monday in Ramadi, the U.S. military said. The deaths brought to 1,904 the number of U.S. troops killed in Iraq. (Full story)

    In Basra Wednesday the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior said it was looking into what led to UK armored fighting vehicles bulldozing the wall of a Basra police station jail in a bid to free the special forces soldiers.

    Inside, troops discovered that the two men had been handed over to the militia by Iraqi police and freed them.

    The men's capture Monday came just a day after British forces in Basra arrested two leading members of the outlawed Mahdi Army which is loyal to firebrand cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and is widely believed to have heavily infiltrated the local Iraqi police, the UK's Press Association reported.

    The two arrested men from the Mahdi Army were the group's Basra area commander, Sheikh Ahmad Majid al-Fartusi, and his aide Sajjat al-Basri, PA said.

    According to PA, the two British men detained by police were members of the Special Air Service and appeared to have been quickly handed over to militiamen by police.

    The mission to rescue them, which was condemned by many Iraqis, was launched amid fears they could face summary execution, PA said.

    One Iraqi member of parliament said that following the arrest of the SAS men, the Mahdi Army had tried to take them hostage to exchange them for its two leaders.

    "Four tanks invaded the area. A tank cannon struck a room where a policeman was praying," policeman Abbas Hassan told Reuters.

    Standing next to mangled cars outside the police station and jail that he said were crushed by British military vehicles, he added: "This is terrorism. All we had was rifles."

    A spokesman for Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said the British operation against the jail had been "a very unfortunate development" but his office later released a statement saying there was no crisis in relations with the British.

    Iraqi policemen at the jail Tuesday surveyed a mass of rubble, broken plywood and air conditioning units where their perimeter wall and a number of prefabricated structures once stood.

    A number of flattened cars appeared to have been run over by British Warrior armored fighting vehicles.

    The two special forces soldiers, who were travelling undercover, were arrested after allegedly becoming involved in a firefight with Iraqi police at a checkpoint. Iraqi officials claimed they had shot dead a local policeman and wounded at least one other.

    The British soldiers are believed to have feared the men were really insurgents dressed in police uniforms, PA said.

    British Defence Secretary John Reid defended the subsequent action by British troops against the Jamiat police station jail, saying it was "absolutely right."

    "We do not have designs to stay (in Iraq) as an occupying imperial power. Nor are we going to cut and run because of terrorists," Reid was quoted as saying by the Daily Telegraph newspaper.

    The paper said that Reid and British defense chiefs would meet Iraqi PM al-Jaafari Wednesday in London to discuss security issues.

    In dramatic scenes outside the jail Monday, British troops were confronted by an angry mob, hundreds strong, throwing stones and petrol bombs and several soldiers suffered minor injuries.

    After they discovered the two SAS men were not in the jail, Iraqi police were confronted with a 30mm cannon and revealed they had been given to the militia.

    Brigadier John Lorimer, commanding officer of 12 Mechanised Brigade in Basra, said: "We will be following up with the authorities in Basra why the soldiers were not immediately handed over to the multinational forces as Iraqi law shows that they should have been.

    "It is of deep concern that British soldiers held by the police should then end up being held by militia," he added.
     
  10. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Lobo who is this "us" and "we" that you speak of?
     
  11. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    So that's the British version of the event from the CNN...

    It's a known fact that Shi'a militias do operate in Basra and the south along with/instead of the Iraqi police, not as 'terrorists' or to undermine the coalition, but to fill in the security void left by the invasion. In fact, the local police in the south operates in conjunction with the militias (they share intel and the militias at times arrest people and hand them over). So they cooperate with one another, not fight one another.

    What the article still doesn't address is what those agents were doing in a car full of explosives and the same type of bombs used in many attacks against civilians across Iraq (including remote-controllers according to the locals).

    Thanks for the article, it tells one version of the event.

    As for MSM, I already told you in my previous post that this particular incident was reported by the BBC, Telegraph, Independent, and the Times of London, which are considered MSM in Britain, and which the two articles I posted cited as sources.
     
  12. Lobo

    Lobo Member

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    Well I guess so far it's at least basso and myself. Does that help?
     
  13. Lobo

    Lobo Member

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    Yes it's quite apparent that the underlying story (British SAS undercover soldiers allegedly firing on personnel wearing Iraqi police uniforms, arrested in car, rescued by British forces after being handed over to militia, etc.) is well known and widely reported. And it should come as no surprise that SAS would be running undercover operations as part of the counter-insurgency effort, just as I'm sure American special forces are as well. That's pretty much what the insurgents themselves appear to be doing, right?

    But in no credible source that I've found is there any mention about the SAS soldiers in question possessing high explosives, remote detonators, etc. You keep saying that the articles you're linking to are based on mainstream reporting, but that's really only half-true, isn't it? It's easy enough to write an article that references other sources for some of the material and then bake in some original content, correct?

    And the insinuations that many of these left-wing sites seem to pump out about the coalition taking part in operations to destabilize Iraq in order to justify an ongoing military presence are just nonsense.
     
    #13 Lobo, Oct 19, 2005
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2005
  14. mulletman

    mulletman Member

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    sounds a lot like the "Divide and Conquer" strategy employed by the British when they were in India. regardless of the credibility of the source, there is precedent for this type of activity in british history

     
  15. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    Here is the British government's explanation of these events (notice the contradiction: the first one states that it was to counter Iranian agents operating in the area, while the second report claims that they were spying on the Iraqi police commander who was torturing prisoners).

    So, which version should I believe? The one in the Sunday Times (the first explanation by British officials) or the one in the Telegraph?

    1) SAS in secret war against Iranian agents
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1796566,00.html

    2) Captured SAS men 'spying on drill torturer'
    http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/16/nsas16.xml
     
  16. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    Thanks, apparently some people are completely unfamiliar with the British imperial past and the tactics they employed, which are well-chronicled and have become public knowledge.
     
  17. Lobo

    Lobo Member

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    I would say the theory regarding countering Iranian influence is more likely.
     
  18. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Really I think this is funny. Juan Cole and Robert Fisk? Oh boy.

    Whatever were the SAS guys doing with arms and explosives, lol. I can't imagine why they would have that stuff....except for the whole 'being in the SAS part.' Also notice how the stories change? They were arrested by the Iraqi police - who can't seem to find their asses with both hands - while driving around. Then they were arrested planting a bomb. Then they were arrested attacking a market. This is pure bull****. The SAS was certainly active in Ireland but as even the first article admits - that was mainly taking out specific IRA targets - not planting bombs in churches.

    Those aren't contradictions - they could have been doing both.
     
  19. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    You're probably right, although the Iranian one sounds more convincing. But that's besides the point. The point is this: why did they give two different reasons for why the SAS were operating there? That IS a contradiction in their official story.
     
  20. Lobo

    Lobo Member

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    I seriously doubt anyone in British government would see any advantage in assisting the insurgents in their efforts to cause chaos and further destabilization of Iraq. What British interest - political, economic, military, diplomatic, or other - would be served by that?
     

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