Simply sad What is it about a supposedly peaceful religion that causes all these problems. Is it simply a coincidence that the majority of terrorists are Islamic militants? Sad... DD
chechens have been oppressed for well over 2-3 centuries. they were promised their freedom. even granted it for a little while. but then russia realized they could have oil or at least be pivotal in oil exportations. im sorry but they have a god given right to rebel. in fact thomas jefferson said so. william penn agrees. that being said. obviously if they are attacking civilians its wrong, immoral, unjust, unnecessary and unjustifable. but to rebel against the government is their right.
The Chechen story has been a tragic one for centuries now, but they don't have my sympathy if they continue to target civilians. True, the Russian military is brutalizing them, but that still doesn't excuse the attacks on civilian targets. I think it's a trend that seems to be adopted by most rebel/militant groups nowadays: bring the war home to the enemy, which is done best by targeting the civilians and other 'soft' targets. DD, save us your sarcasm about the 'religion of peace' crap. I told you before, Islam is a tool of peace AND war, given specific circumstances. BTW, the US government has been a staunch supporter of Chechnyan independence for a while now, especially in the case of the Neocons. Heck, for all intents and purposes, the US/Britain could be said to 'harbor terrorists'.
but shouldn't our sympathy be to the cause and not the actions? im sure the overwhelming percentage of chechens aren't conducting any military actions but instead bearing the brunt of the oppression by the russian forces. our sympathy for the cause shouldn't be dependent on the actions of certain people.
I absolutely agree, because 'supporting the cause' is what's still the right thing to do, despite these actions. I support the Chechen cause (much like the current administration) and I support the Palestinian cause and I support the Kurdish cause and on and on and on... However, human emotions are affected by these actions, and could deter people from publicly supporting the cause if fringe people are associated with such a movement.
That's debatable. Russia won't grant Chechnya complete soveriegnty for a couple of reasons, one of them being oil. But, Russia went back on the autonomy they granted because Chechens kept attacking them.
Chechnyan rebels are no more Islamic fundamentalists than the IRA. Theirs is a political terrorism, not a religious one.
Terrorists follow the "Vietnam Model" in order to wage their wars (whatever their cause or motovation). They know they can't beat the U.S. or Russia or any other major (and most minor) Nation/States directly so they kill civilians and try to pick off soldiers in a war of public opinion. Their goal is to erode popular support for wars in their enemy's home country in order to get their enemy to pull out. They know that if they maim enough people and if the news media puts it on TV (which they will) they will eventually turn the political tides in their enemy's country and their enemy will withdraw and the terrorists will win. The terrorists just need patience. In today's political climate there is no way to defeat this stategy. It wouldn't work against, say, Saddam Hussein as he didn't care about local politics or the "will of his people". He just did what he wanted. But it works against any and all Western Democracies.
Tiger, You are right, my bad....I know it is not all of Islam that is rising up as terrorists. It just seems that more terrorists these days are using Islam as a cover for terrorism. DD
Because it's the best recruiting tool, DD. What would garner more sympathy or support than to claim that you are doing something in the 'name of religion'? Even terrorists/militants/insurgents are smart politicians.
I don't blame you for the misunderstanding. The thing that makes me laugh the most is this rising sense of Islamophobia in the west and this notion that all of the Muslim terrorists are united under Al-Qaeda and Islam and have a common goal of spreading "islamofascism." I got my first exposure to it sometime in the 90's after reading an op-ed by Daniel Pipes. The region was relatively unknown at that time to the American public, and I think this Administration and its mouthpeices in the sensationalist media have fed off of this unfamiliarity. Muslim countries hate each other for the most part. It's not like this is some united conspiracy. Their only common interest is disdain for the state of Isreal. This is why I laugh when some on this board make calls for Muslim leaders to speak out against terrorism. That just shows a complete lack of understanding of the region and of the religion. There is no clergy or hierarchy. That ended with the fall of the Ottomans. Noone gives a rat's ass what anyone else has to say and every state is fighting it's own independent battle. This isn't some mass grand conspiracy to take over the world like some would tell you. The fact is that the majority of Muslim lands today are either former colonies living under opressive regimes or are currently fighting opression or for independence. It's been that way since World War 2. It's very easy to draw a parallel when one sees the common ground - that they are all Muslim. One would easily assume (with the right propoganda) that their intent is to spread their ideology when this is far from the case. Islam is the second largest religion in the world today - what else do you expect especially when the vast majority of its followers live under opression? Do you see any American Muslims committing acts of terror or agression? Of course not, because they are educated and not fighting against tyranny. It's very easy to try and find the roots in Islam, especially when so many rally around it in their rhetoric, but that is just the nature of the animal. That's an incorporation in their every day life so its no wonder they would include it. It doesn't mean it is the cause or that they are trying to propogate it. If a terrorist says "Allah" or "jihad" automatically it is inferred that he is an extremist in hopes of spreading "islamofascism" but how is that any different than saying "by God" and "war." It's essentially the same thing. If a terrorist says "By Allah, I am calling for jihad," how is that any different than George W. Bush saying "God told me to fight this war." It doesn't mean they are trying to propogate the religion or that their motives are embedded in their religious beliefs, that's just the rhetoric used in the Arab world. The greatest hypocrisy is the fact that terrorism is taking place in every corner of the world but we only focus on the "Islamic" terrorists because they are the only ones that effect us and help policymakers garner public support. Killing of ANY innocent civilians is EQUALLY reprehensible. What difference does it matter whether its of the suicide nature or of the conventional nature? It's despicable no matter what. Where is the mention of the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka, or the seperatists in Spain, or countless guerilla wars scattered across South America and Africa? Noone cares because it doesn't effect us in the least bit. It's amazing at how this administration has kept the public in a constant state of paranoia as if the very existance of this nation is at stake because of terrorism. 9/11 was no doubt a huge tragedy but what purpose does it serve to continue generating fear among the masses? Abraham Lincoln once said “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter, and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” I will not even get into what we have done in Iraq. I was at the dentist's office the other day and got a chance to tune into FoxNews by force of being there, and I was apalled. Story after story of endless hysteria: "Are you prepared for a terrorist attack? Learn how terrorists plan to attack our water systems. or "this man was found recently taking flight lessons" What good does this serve? We already see this manifestation in the D&D. It only serves to deter from the real issues - the absolute travesty that the greatest nation in the world doesn't have universal health care or that the greatest endangered species in the world - the American Middle Class - is struggling for its very survival. If we really wanted to fight terrorism we would have stopped f*cking around in Iraq and caught Bin Laden. What purpose does it serve to keep reminding the public? Just go out and do the god damn job if you want us to be so safe!
thecabbage, that was a good read. I think the problem is that our general public is too Americentric to care to learn about what's out there. This results in our xenophobia as well as us being misinformed on most issues. Considering that we are the richest country in the world with multiple media sources, and have access to some of the best education around the globe, this is simply pathetic.
Chechnya is about the shattering of the Soviet Union. Dudaev declared independence about 6 months after their neighbor Georgia and probably assumed that it would go as smoothly. Wikipedia points out a technical administrative reason why Chechnya was treated differently: [rquoter] The main reason for the discriminative treatment of different independence declarations is a matter of the Soviet hierarchy of different regions: the international community decided to recognize those who had the Socialist Soviet Republic (SSR) status in the USSR (including Russia itself), while those with Autonomous Socialist Soviet Republic (ASSR) status were not recognized. While the SSR's were theoretically (but not practically) semi-sovereign under the Soviet rule, the ASSR's were part of SSR's. The result was that some Central Asian republics became independent with reluctance, while some smaller but eagerly independence-minded republics (mainly Chechnya and Dagestan, but also Tatarstan and Tuva) had to choose between surrendering their nationhood or starting active resistance. Only the Chechens chose the latter. [/rquoter] The problem was probably exacerbated by the fact that ethnic Chechyns were discriminated against. It should be noted, however, that the name chosen for the state was Chechen Republic of Ichkeria which is a Turkic name, not an Islamic one, and independance wasn't initially framed as a religious cause. I think the "Islamic" banner might be turning into something like the "Red Communist" banner was in the 60's & 70's. Everybody who wanted to change the order of things and could find the most tenuous linkage with the Communist ideology took up the banner and draped themselves in the terminology to rally support and get aid. Anthropologically, most of these conflicts can be viewed as expressions of the same biological imperatives that govern Gorilla culture. As young males mature they are compelled to violently challenge the dominant silverback. At all other times gorillas are shy and nonviolent. Is it any coincidence that most militants the world over are young disenfranchised males?
