Personally, I am not yet convinced! I need for gwayneco to post ten anti-Muslim threads per day for an entire week, and then, and only then, will I be convinced that he doesn't like Muslims. I am surprised people here jump to conclusions so quickly based entirely on a poster's track-record. How ignorant!
Before ordering the final solution Hitler assured the other leaders that they had no reprecussions to fear because "no one remembers the Armenians." Well, I guess he was right about at least one thing...
Isn't it true that some Muslims and others continue to deny the Holocaust even happened? How that can be is beyond belief with all the evidence? Pure ignorance. We need the day to remember for those who would rather have us deny it happened or want us to forget about it. I'm not opposed to other genocides having their days. But, I agree that the way the Germans methodically went about this extermination is second to none. It went beyond being barbarism in that the Germans behaved like this was normal behavior for several years...like they were taking out the trash.
Actually having days for different genocides is starting to sound like having holidays which i believe are for remembering good things. Look holocaust revisionism goes beyond islam. There are people of all religions who believe in revisionism. Those who believe in it tend to use it for political and nationalist reasons and are those at the fringes of their respective religions. Look no one's questioning how bad the holocaust was. It's almost impossible to describe in words. For those who havent, go see the holocaust museum in DC. It gives a very vivid description of what happened. But to claim that we should have a day to remember the holocaust because a few people don't believe in it seems kind of pointless. I'm sure technically in the US might even have one of these days but I bet none of you know it and I'm sure very few British people know about holocaust rememberence day. And of those who do know about it, probably most aren't remembering it. Instead, having this holiday means everyone demands the same. African Americans might rightly claim that there should be a day to remember the crimes of slavery. Native Americans would demand their day. Japanese Americans could demand a day to remember their internment. Rwandans, Albanians, Algerians, Chinese (in response to Japanese genocidal policies pre WWII), Koreans also could make the same claim, etc.. As a bonus, if a government forgets to include a group, they'll promptly be labeled as racist for failing to include a group. Its a pandora's box that no one wants to deal with. At worst, just make a day to acknowledge and remember genocide.
Well - some aryan supremist groups say the same thing. Not that it really makes a differance, but singling out muslims in this regard is unnecessary. Concur. This is the truth. Nazi extermination was a level above any other attempted genocide.
yea I guess since they participated and majorly funded the Slaves trades Native American Extermination I can see where they would not want to be remembering that just another way to say .. .SEE GERMANS BAD . . ENGLISH GOOD I guess I guess i should feel special that they didn't give a d*mn about my ancestors enslavement or the Native Americans being slaughtered that we don't even register a mention . . . but yes yes. . . That other bad stuff is more WORTHY of a holiday . . . Rocket River
The Rwandan Genocide was something truly horrible Like I said The nazi's were More efficient and swift Whereas Rwanda was just as ruthless and in America. . it was more Thorough we like to put the Nazi's as the worse moment in human history becuase they did it so quickly and organized whereas we don't like to look at the fact that America did virtually the same thing . .just over a longer period of time and of course we can argue. . they had more 'valid reasons' . . . i guess Rocket River
I think it was necessary because the article is talking about Muslims and there is a bias by Muslims against the Jews. So, alternate reasons could factor into why they don't want the Jews to have their own Holocaust day beyond some simple explanation of sending the wrong signals to young Muslims. That is not to say this is the case...but it cannot just be excluded on a whim. This doesn't even factor in the argument of whether Muslims are correct in their bias. Obviously, they have valid grievances but their not impartial observers to this subject either...is what I mean. If you believe the argument that the Holocaust was the worst genocide ever because of the way it was methodically carried out, the mass scale it was carried out over in many countries, and the millions who died, then you probably believe it deserves to be remembered on its own. I think that combining this day with all genocides shouldn't happen because I believe it is on a scale all its own. That is not to downplay the other genocides...which I believe should be remembered however they wish them to be remembered. I don't care if you call it a holiday or whatever. They should be observed and remembered...there is no argument there.
RR, with all due respect, why is it racist for the British, or other Europeans, to remember the Holocaust as a monumental, horrific occurence in Europe that is still a living memory for many... a memory tainted by shame that more wasn't done to get the Jews in Germany out who were desperately trying to find refuge before the war, and that it happened on their continent, by a nation both highly civilized, and one with especially close ties to Great Britain's royal family and the British people themselves. The British were still attempting to forge an alliance with Germany just prior to WWI, and the British and Germans, both the common people, the ruling families, and high government officials of both countries, believed war between the two to be almost unthinkable. The chaos after WWI directly led to Hitler's rise to power, by providing the opportunity for a clever madman, distained by the ruling classes there, to grasp power and never let go, much to the surprise to those Germans who saw him as a tool that they could discard when it suited them. This is a European tragedy. Yes, it had immense, worldwide repercussions, and not only for the Jewish people, but it is a European nightmare, still rememberd by many who experienced it in one form or another. The idea that some other tragedy occured elsewhere, and multiple, horrific tragedies have occured all over the globe, before and after WWII... that those other nightmares should be lumped together for a "politically correct" reason ignores the very European experience of what Hitler and his Nazis did. This is a post I made over a year and a half ago, a remembering of an experience my wife and I had on an extended visit to the Netherlands. I think it fits here. It didn't get a response when I posted it, and I don't care if it gets one now. We were deeply affected by it. Sometimes, that's all that matters. Keep D&D Civil!!
I visited Mauthausen, the Austrian concentration camp, when I was over there in 1978. You just cannot imagine the impact it has on you until you visit a concentration camp yourself. Mauthausen, like many of the camps, has a museum on it's grounds. It was fascinating and disturbing.
Rocket River/Surfguy: I am not trying to quantitatively rate these atrocities. Being of German descent, the holocaust is particularly vivid. Having read several books on genocides (not just the holocaust), I don't think one is "worse" than the others. However it does appear more machine-like and systematic, lending it a crueler and more inhumane historical signifigance.
Deckard The issue is that British People. . isn't just the white people of Brittian is it? or are the the only ones that matter? What about the Muslims there? West Indians? Africans? The connection to Germany is with the white Brits. .. What about he other Brits? should they not be considered? Evidently the Muslim Brits have an issue does it matter . .. do they matter? Rocket River
Again, there is no doubt that the Holocaust deserves to be remembered, but I do absolutely and firmly believe that you HAVE to remember other major atrocities in history and not merely single one out as if to say 'these people are more worthy of rememberance', which I can understand why other groups (not just some Muslims, mind you) find it offensive. This is NOT for anti-Semitism or anything like that, the only thing those groups are asking for is to also remember other atrocities on this day (Holocaust day) and make it more of a national day as a reminder of the fact that atrocities have been perpetrated by and against almost every race of people. What's wrong with this view? Why is it offensive to some of you? It's not a matter of 'quantity' or anything like that as far as how many people died, but it's more so the 'idea' and 'evilness' of such actions, which all these atrocities have in common. Anyways, I don't support those who deny the Holocausts ever existed, indeed the most common argument is that the Holocaust is being 'overdramatized' and the numbers of deaths have been exaggerated, not total denial. Those Muslim-British leaders are NOT denying the Holocaust as a tragedy, they are merely asking a MULTI-CULTURAL SOCIETY like Britain to be more 'inclusive' and remember the suffering of other peoples. To argue that the Jews somehow 'deserve it more' is elitism, IMHO.
There is no right or wrong answer to this topic.....we can say that ANY mass killings of this nature is not a good thing regardless of who did it and to whom it was done to. Perspective and personal association will definitely weigh on one's opinion toward the issue. But it certainly doesn't lesson the said attrocity in any instance. Bottom line is this type of thing has been going on since people have been around and as far as I can tell will continue to go until we either kill each other off completely or turn ourselves into the civilation depicted in Aldous Huxley's - Brave New World (scary thought). History is riddled with various atrocities and there are undoubtedly countless others that are either undocumented / unknown or conveniently forgotten. Why this type of thing happens? who is to say....it might be easier to answer why humans are given the power of awareness, conscienceness and opposable thumbs... Regardless of what religion you choose to practice......I know there is a god because the world is to perfectly harmonious and self sustaining for there not to be, it just seems to be us humans that keep screwing things up....
There has been countless attrocities listed in this topic, yet the next holocaust is inevitable. What would make it ironic would be if Israel will trigger a Holocaust with its nuclear weapons. Sure they're totally effective as "deterrents", but can anyone imagine the reprecussions of a 9/11 attack that'd devestate an Israeli city? You'd have a blood thirsty populace with the knowledge that nuclear weapons aren't effective for safety.
well ofcourse the holocaust was done very systematically. People were given role numbers and duties, and everyone died a particular way. Each death had a reason. ie testing, taking up too much space, etc etc whereas in other genocides, people were just killed, dumped in graves and thats it. so thats why in my opinion the holocaust seems much worse, but its definately not possible for us to rate these on a scale from one to 10 and judge which one is the worse. people from each region will swear their problems were much worse and the atrocities they faced cannot be compared with.
