1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

A Katrina Report Card

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Sep 7, 2005.

  1. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,429
    Likes Received:
    9,328
    as far as i'm concerned, all grades should be marked "incomplete" at this juncture, but here's one take. seems pretty right on about blanco, and god knows i'd like to get the G2 on her interactions with brown over the past ten days.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/blog_9_6_05_1045.html

    --
    Tuesday September 6, 2005
    KATRINA - THE REPORT CARD: One of the worst natural disasters in American history is now a week in the rear view mirror. We know a lot more now than we did when it started, and we will undoubtedly learn a lot more in the coming days, weeks, and months. Here is my take on the players and their response, from the bottom up:

    Mayor Nagin: Honestly, I admire Nagin's intensity and understand his frustration. It's too bad he didn't show the same sort of urgency in ordering and organizing the evacuation last week, because things might have turned out much different.

    When you know that the city you lead is 1) below sea-level and built to withstand only a Category 3 storm and 2) is a very difficult place to evacuate based on past history and 3) is relying on what you yourself characterize as limited local resources to conduct such an operation, there is no excuse to wait until less than 24 hours to pull the trigger on ordering a mandatory evacuation when a Category 5 storm is bearing down on you. None.

    When all is said and done I think we'll find that the greatest contributing factor in this tragedy was Mayor Nagin's lack of urgency on the front end and his inability to coordinate and execute an evacuation plan (even one that now looks in hindsight to have been seriously flawed) that got as many people out of New Orleans as possible.

    Governor Blanco: It's hard to find any redeeming qualities in Blanco's conduct during this entire affair. I haven't seen any reports on just how aggressively she mobilized state assets to prepare for and to assist the evacuation effort before Katrina struck, so perhaps details will emerge that will accrue to her credit - though frankly I will be surprised if that turns out to be true.

    Since the hurricane hit Blanco's response has been a case study in lack of leadership; from projecting weakness and insecurity to squabbling over turf. The Governor has done little to leave the impression she has been either confident or competent in helping to manage this crisis. Again, I suspect this is an impression that will be confirmed by numerous examples once all the facts are in.

    Michael Brown: He's got to go. The bottom line is that as the man in charge of coordinating federal relief efforts the results produced on his watch were simply not good enough. Again, we don't know all that went on behind the scenes so there may be a number of mitigating factors, but from what we have seen in the press Brown looks from the outset to have been extremely ineffective if not downright confused some of the time.

    The other reason Brown should be fired is because he didn't belong as director of FEMA in the first place. As everyone knows by now, Brown got his original job as the General Counsel for FEMA because of a personal connection with Joe Allbaugh. That's fine, because at least Brown was qualified to hold that position. But lives aren't at stake when you're FEMA's lawyer, they are when you're FEMA's director. Joe Allbaugh bears a great deal of responsibility for promoting Brown to deputy director and for (I assume) recommending his appointment to director to President Bush.

    President Bush: When you finish sifting through all of the partisan red herrings that have been thrown out to try and blame Bush for this catastrophe (budget cuts to the Army Corps of Engineers, budget cuts to and reorganization of FEMA, National Guard troops in Iraq, wetlands policy, global warming policy, and on and on) the President's main responsibility lies with the fact one of the members of his administration looks to have done a poor job of managing the federal government's portion of planning and responding to this crisis.

    As captain of the team, Bush is responsible for his players and he should have recognized sooner that Michael Brown was not getting the job done.

    Having said that, it's worth noting that even a more competent, experienced FEMA director wouldn't have been able to stop the flooding or most likely to have foreseen the widespread looting and violence that followed and caused such havoc with rescue efforts. In fact, short of President Bush stepping in an using executive powers to order the National Guard to forcibly evacuate New Orleans (something I'm not sure is possible), a perfectly executed post-hurricane relief plan under the circumstances in New Orleans would have sped things up by maybe 24 hours. That's a lot of time in a crisis relief situation and certainly would have saved a few lives, but I'm not sure it would have drastically changed the dynamics of what we saw unfolding in New Orleans last week.

    Katrina really was a perfect storm in that she struck a city that was extremely vulnerable to flooding; a city with significant crime, drug, and poverty issues that was effectively rendered lawless for three days causing a complete social breakdown, and a city (and state) government with a long and notorious tradition for corruption and incompetence. All of the tragedy resulting from these things was compounded by a less than perfect response by FEMA.
     
  2. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    129,449
    Likes Received:
    40,022
    A fairly even viewpoint.


    Lots of blame to go around, but not sure we have any real answers......New Orleans is in a unique situation in that it is the only major metropolitan city in the USA that is below sea level and susceptible to hurricanes.

    Unless we learn to somehow control the weather, New Orleans will eventually be doomed, maybe not for 1000 years, but someday.

    DD
     
  3. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,429
    Likes Received:
    9,328
    i agree, although a "student's" "grade" should be based on how well he or she went about the business of saving, or safeguarding, the city's residents, not the city itself.
     
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    61,947
    Likes Received:
    41,509
    Aside from Bush's blame or nonblame, why are these automatically red herrings, other than that this is a right wing blogger talking, and every inconvenient fact is classified as such....?
     
  5. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    I thought the same thing.
     
  6. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,429
    Likes Received:
    9,328
    because the cause and effect is unsubstantiated.
     
  7. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    Wait a minute.

    budget cuts to the Army Corps of Engineers:

    Are you implying reduced funding may have aided the Corp in maintaining/improving the levies?

    budget cuts to and reorganization of FEMA:

    Are you implying FEMA has performed as well as it has in the past? Or that budget cuts again have no negative impact to services?

    National Guard troops in Iraq:

    He did send them there, right? And at a cost, that required the aforementioned budget cuts.

    wetlands policy, global warming policy:

    I'll give you these.

    More importantly basso, unsubstantiated cause and effect does not always correlate directly to "red herrings". If it did, you may need to rethink the George Bush "they hate us for our freedoms" rhetoric and the vast majority of the Iraqi quagmire.
     
  8. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,429
    Likes Received:
    9,328

    the levee that failed was upgraded last year. it was made of concrete, not earth, so budget cuts played zero role in the failure of the levee.

    60% of lousiana's national guard units were available for duty in NO. moreover, substantial guard units from elsewhere, as well as regular army troops were available. blanco either did not request them in a timely fashion, or she did not request them at all. iraq played zero role.

    FEMA was reorganized as part of DHS. what role that played, if any, is uncertain. FEMA certinly looked prepared in the days leading up to the storm. there was a break-down in reponse after, but the cause is unknown. the communication nexus surrounding blanco and brown will provide much insight. supplies and personnel were avilable however. getting them where they needed to be was the problem, and that's ultimately a communications issue.

    lastly, south LA wetlands have been disappearing for a hundred years, and are a direct result of ACE flood control programs further upstream.
     
  9. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    I am not sure how you can assume that budget cuts played zero role in the failure of the levee system. Do you work with these engineers? Are you a civil engineer by training? Obviously, the levee that broke was upgraded, and I understand your point. But I don't think you can make an unequivocal assertion that budget cuts did not contribute to a weakened levee system. For the record, I have heard that the levee system was never intended (even prior to the cuts) to resist a category 4-5 storm - but I think it overzealous to assume these budget cuts had no impact. That's illogical.

    The Bush administration allocated $100 million, and transfered a key Army engineer in Louisiana, to restore the marshlands in Iraq. $100 million for the wetlands in Iraq this year versus $87 million for New Orleans levees. Maybe the national guard was not overloaded, but you are failing your own "cause and effect substantiation" requirement.

    Basso, your argument here is boiling down to "you can't prove it". I don't think "you can't prove it" implies a red herring. You can't have it both ways.

    Agreed, as previously stated.
     
  10. Mr. Brightside

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    2,148
    Blanco is an abysmal failure. I'm happy to know she will be gone next term.
     
  11. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    7,823
    Likes Received:
    1,639
    Well, I heard an interview of the guy that was responsible for those levee's and he said he needed the funds probably 20 years ago to build something that would be impervious. So for the last 20 years he hasn't had enough money. So when Dubya cut his funds even more than that, the levee's definately were not on the upswing after the previous 20 year span.

    So yes, he didn't say Dubya's cuts were a direct cause and effect. However it clearly demonstrates Dubya's priorities were in the wrong place. In hindsight: Iraq = little threat. NOLA = big threat.

    zero role? You didn't mention that ALL national guard recruitment #'s are down since the Iraq war.

    You didn't mention that a lot of equipment used by the national guard was deployed to Iraq.

    You didn't mention that of the 60% of the guardsmen that were here, many had recently returned from Iraq.

    You didn't mention that Bush ordered the return of hundreds of guardsmen from Iraq which in and of itself is an indication that Iraq played some role.

    I'll agree with you that the Iraq war isn't necessarily a major factor ...but to dismiss it as "zero factor" is, well, dismissive. It was clearly A factor.

    How well an organization is run typically starts from the top. Their big cheif was a joke with no credentials.

    Yes. LA wetlands have been a problem for a LONG time before Dubya we ever born. However, Bush's policies have CONTRIBUTED to the problems. He clearly cut funding since 1991. Furthermore, the Clinton administration set new policies on those wetlands and the Bush administration repealed those policies which have directly resulted in the drainage of thousands of aces of wetlands since 1990. At least according to Molly Ivans. I'm looking for a more nuetral source to verify that.
     
  12. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,429
    Likes Received:
    9,328
    i'll just point out that W wasn't president until 2001, and Molly Ivins is perhaps not the final word on wetlands policy.
     
  13. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    I can blame the president for more than a few things here. Shoring up the levees ain't one of them.

    That's been a problem in NOLA for at least 100 years. Maybe longer. You can cast blame at every governor of LA since then...ever mayor of NOLA since then...and perhaps, every President of the US since then.

    One of the levee parts that failed was actually an improved part...a concrete wall, that was seen as an upgrade from previous levees. It was literally knocked over by the force of the water.
     
  14. ROXTXIA

    ROXTXIA Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2000
    Messages:
    20,932
    Likes Received:
    13,076
    Preparedness and such aside (ya'll are covering this aspect pretty well), if we're pointing the finger at George about anything, it's that he showed no cause for concern for New Orleans or its people until waaaay too late.

    Even then, sorry to say, his reaction was what you wouldn't want to see from a Texas good-ole boy. Hey, George, I know they're poor; I know they're black; I know they didn't vote for you.....but (barf!) you're the President, and a major U.S. city was virtually erased from the map.

    Compassion does not mean another photo op standing next to Laura in a church with your eyes closed and heads bowed in prayer.
     
  15. flamingmoe

    flamingmoe Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2003
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    0
    WASHINGTON - The three top jobs at the Federal Emergency Management Agency under President Bush went to political cronies with no apparent experience coping with catastrophes, the Daily News has learned.
    Even if Bush were to fire embattled and suddenly invisible FEMA Director Michael Brown over his handling of Hurricane Katrina, the bureaucrat immediately below him is no disaster professional, either.

    While Brown ran horse shows in his last private-sector job, FEMA's No. 2 man, deputy director and chief of staff Patrick Rhode, was an advance man for the Bush-Cheney campaign and White House. He also did short stints at the Commerce Department and Small Business Administration.

    Rhode's biography posted on FEMA's Web site doesn't indicate he has any real experience in emergency response.

    In addition, the agency's former third-ranking official, deputy chief of staff Scott Morris, was a PR expert who worked for Maverick Media, the Texas outfit that produced TV and radio spots for the Bush-Cheney campaign. In June, Morris moved to Florida to become FEMA's long-term recovery director.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/344004p-293718c.html
     
  16. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    35,080
    Likes Received:
    15,272
    The article is a bit too light on Bush. He does make a good point that Bush was let down to a great extent by the incompetence of FEMA. Perhaps if FEMA came in and did a bang-up job from the get-go, significant National Guard presence would not have even been necessary. Then, Bush would come out smelling like roses.

    However, the lawlessness could have been easily predicted. Looting always will happen with a forced evacuation. It happens with more mundane things than that. Any official who says they couldn't have predicted looting would follow should be fired. I knew it was going to happen, and it's not even my job. And, a couple of people have said things to that effect, including Brown and Bush. Given that you should know looting will happen and that FEMA does not have a law-enforcement role (as far as I know), you have a significant burden on NOPD. Once the levee broke and the problems were compounded, National Guard should have been mobilized immediately. Maybe Blanco needs to request it before they're allowed in. If so, Bush should have called her and told her to request it.

    The whole event makes me think of the riots (demonstrations, if you prefer) of the 60s in which cops ended up shooting some people. They learned from those events to respond to civil unrest with an overwhelming law enforcement presence to be sure things don't get out of hand again. Perhaps, we'll learn from this that future disasters need to be addressed with an overwhelming presence as well.

    Anyway, I give Nagin a passing grade. Some of the criticism about the evacuation is probably warranted, but I think it is mitigated somewhat by the fact that municipal governments have very finite resources. Also, I think the extent to which people didn't leave because they could not is exxagerated. They have thousands of people today who refuse to leave and need to be forcibly removed. Can you imagine having to do that right before the hurricane hit?

    Blanco seems to have been a nonfactor, which is a bad thing. Shown no leadership. If she's up for re-election, I'd be surprised if she got any love. Brown might actually get canned, partly for being imcompetent (and sounding incompetent in interviews), but partly for allowing his imcompetence to reflect badly on the president.

    Lt Gn Honore is the only guy who really gets an A. When he finally did arrive (and his delay probably was not his fault), everything got better in short order. Think he'd be interested in running FEMA?
     
  17. nyquil82

    nyquil82 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2002
    Messages:
    5,174
    Likes Received:
    3
    Wait, if you believe Clinton is responsible for his inactivity during the Rwandan genocide (which I also believe), shouldn't you also believe that Bush is proportionately responsible for his inactivity in the past week that led to thousands of deaths?
     
  18. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,429
    Likes Received:
    9,328
    I blame the vain for what we wear,
    And I blame the blind when we can't see.
    I blame it all on someone else,
    Till there's nobody left, then I just blame me.

    I blame her mind for the thoughts we share,
    Whoa, and I blame her heart for the time we cared.
    I blame it all on how we used to be,
    Till she's finally gone, then I'll just blame me.

    So go ahead and blame,
    Anything that you want.
    'Cause it all ends up the same,
    When everything that you've been claiming is wrong.

    Oh and don't you know that blame,
    Is always never enough.
    It just keeps you in the game,
    Till you've only got yourself left to bluff.

    So I blame the vain for what we wear,
    Yeah, and I'll blame the blind when we can't see.
    I'll blame it all on someone else,
    Till there's nobody left, then I'll just blame me.
    Till she's fin'lly gone, then I just blame me
     
  19. giddyup

    giddyup Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2002
    Messages:
    20,466
    Likes Received:
    488
    I heard the guy that hired Mike Brown (Allebaugh?) as a general counsel at FEMA. He's known him for 30 years. They "were not roommates regardless of what ABC News says... in fact they didn't even go to the same college."

    Brown was hired because of his "strong ethics background in the law."

    Finally he was "the obvious choice" (according to Allebaugh) to become the new Director of FEMA.
     
  20. langal

    langal Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,824
    Likes Received:
    91
    http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219

    This article lambasts the mayor and governor. It seems that the mayor and governor clearly did not respond in a timely fashion. Just yesterday, I heard the governor saying that it was not the mayor's job to order evacuations. It may have been taken out of context - but the quote seems pretty damning.

    As for GW - he definitely should have taken a more forceful and pro-active role. Even if the mayor and governor were dawdling, a more decisive leader probably could have cajoled or forced them into action. I'm not sure what the penalties would have been for stepping on Louisiana's sovereignty, but it sure would have saved lives.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now