This is what I find disturbing about the article. My parents have lived in Champions for about ten years or so. They just moved around the block to a new house. Anyways, there are these teenage kids that live across the street with their dad. Their house looks like it is falling apart. The "landscaping" consists of nothing but weeds. There is exposed wood where they were doing repairs, but never finished. The driveway might as well be dirt because of all the holes in the concrete. The fence around the back is falling down. You have to understand that this is a very upscale neighborhood. So far, nothing has been done to them. The damn kids sit outside smoking pot and drinking alcohol and then throw their trash everywhere. But does the homeowners association do anything? Of course not! They are apparently too busy harrassing elderly ladies. ------------------ TWO!!!!!!
In my folks neighborhood, one guy wanted to build on his house (make an extra room). The addition was extremely well planned (same paint color as his house-in fact only 1 exterior color is allowed in the whole neighborhood, it would be covered by tile roof, was within the overall styling of the neighborhood, etc.), Further, his plans were approved by the homeowner's association architectural committee (which my dad was on). However, in seeking final board approval the guy’s changes were denied. The rationale? The addition would raise the price of his house (perhaps even raising the price in the neighborhood). In other words, the board thought his addition would make their houses not "measure up". They would feel inadequate! In my experience, most of these deed restrictions are not based on how they might effect property value--but are about conformity. Luckily in my neighborhood the neighbors (once all houses are sold we take over enforcement of the CC&Rs the developers wrote up) I have met so far appear to view it like me--that unless it is something very egregious to let it slide. I agree there is occasionally a place for them (ensuring basic maintenance and health standards), most of it is pretty sad considering the themes of freedom and individual liberty our country was in part founded on. We seriously need to rein them in with superseding state and federal law, especially if such deed restrictions interfere with the public’s interest--out in the west a lot potentially cost effective ways to save scarce resources are thwarted by them (e.g., prohibiting less aesthetically appealing but well insulated houses, prohibiting solar hot water heaters, prohibiting solar cells, requiring high-water requiring lawns/plants, etc.). [This message has been edited by Desert Scar (edited May 02, 2001).]
In my mom's subdivision the HOA says that she cannot park her car in her driveway unless the garage is utilized to capacity with two cars. My aunt and uncle in the same area were told that they are not allowed to have five cars. My mom was charged $1,000 for pruning trees in the common area behind her house. The head of the HOA got a restraining order against my mom for allegedly chasing her around the main offices and against my aunt for allegedly trying to run her off of he road. My biggest problem with the HOA is that they only enforce the rules against people that they don't like. I can't believe that we pay them to be allowed to live here. What a crock. ------------------ "Of course, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong" -- Dennis Miller
To clarify on the contact methods used... Fox reported that they sent all correspondence to her husband who has been dead for some years. She thought it was junk mail and threw it away. The people who came to serve her came after 7pm at night and as late as 9:15pm. The woman said she is afraid to answer the door after 7pm because she lives alone. Carry on. This is fun reading. ------------------ So, I took the million dollars and bought a steam shovel...
While HOA are strange and many times a pain in the butt - or insane as in this case, but there are times I wish I lived back in one. Currently I live in a neighborhood of $250K-$400K+ homes and we have a person that just painted his house a bright blue. We have another person who drives his truck on his lawn to the back of his house. He has done this everyday for the past several years. Needless to say, the lawn has hugh mud ruts leading back to the house. And last year, he graced the neighborhood by flying a large Confederate Flag for a few days. Lovely. ------------------
I really don't understand the point of Home Owners Associations. Any one care to explain? From all I am gathering from this thread, it sounds more like a popularity contest and a bunch of lame ass rules that don't really do anything. On another note, I called and talked to my momma (a Champions resident) and she was telling me that people in Champions are really upset over this whole incident. She also mentioned that some of the nice people in the neighborhood had offered to help her buy her house and stuff back. For now, I am thinking that HOAs just plain suck. ------------------ One and a Half!!!!
rm95, which examples? The boat? That happened to my family when I was growing up. The Winnebago? Just happened to a friend of mine. When he was in the process of buying the house, the Winnebago was nowhere to be found, the day he closed and moved in, bam a ****ing 50' Winnebago was taking up most of the street. How did he handle it? The neighborhood association. The three broken down cars parked in the yard? I'm guessing about 65% of Vietnam Vets have some bs car project strewn about their yard. I know of at least 3. One of my friends is putting his neighbors through that ordeal right now. Others whining about their HOAs, Look, we all love personal projects. My wife loves to grow things, I love to build things. Your HOA doesn't prohibit those sorts of things, it prohibits you screwing around on a project that you're never going to finish. Most home owner covenants have to ascribe to local laws... so I'd have to assume that most of the bs that you can make up about your local HOA... well... is bs. And it's not as if you or your parents didn't know of the covenants for a neighborhood before you moved in. The rules are par for the course. You can never move into a restricted area and all of a sudden declare personal property rights that exceed those on the deed. I live in a condo that doesn't allow dogs. Well I want a Springer or Brittany, tough luck, I'll have to move. Again, if you ever moved into a condo or townhouse or any other area governed by an association and didn't understand the way the covenants worked... you're a ****ing idiot. If all of a sudden you don't particularly care for the covenants, you're a ****ing whiner. Noone magically finds themselves in these situations... you contractually oblige yourself, so get over it or move. Jeff, I think the contact methods were clear. What isn't clear is why the assoc. didn't terminate the foreclosure process. It would be nice if the reporter would gather that information. I'm actually still at a loss as to what you expected of the association. They sent mail to a widow... whoa, I'm sure that doesn't happen at least 500,000,000 times a day. As far as her personal hours, of course that's reasonable on her behalf... but the association did everything reasonably as well. Does this lady have a telephone? Is the neighborhood association taking one on the chin for her? Did they visit earlier but don't want to call her a liar or senile? It'd be nice to see their actual response. Something unfortunate happened here. An old lady didn't pay her HOA fees for two years. The HOA went down the path that every other HOA would have to do, in their own self defense. Could they have acted more compassionately? Sure. Could this lady have paid her bills on time? Sure. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
There is a very big reason why you need a HOA. I don't know who determines who the HOA is or what not, but it needs to be controled by the community. They need to be voted in and easily voted out. Just imagine buying a 200K home, only to have the next door neighbor croak, and their home goes to their child, who is a crackbabie, drug dealing freak. They decide to pain their house multiple colors, never trim their bush, cut their lawn, having foul smells coming from their house. I think then you would like to have an HOA. ------------------ Im too drunk to walk ... Im driving home!
Yes, I see that. But what I am telling you is that the Champions HOA is being selective. They are not doing anything about other people violating the codes or rules or whatever. Are you telling me this is fair? Because I don't agree. ------------------ One and a Half!!!!
Think about it... even if you buy a house with your own money, and the yard, you can't use it to do what you want (even perfectly legal stuff like painting it different colors). I agree it's contrary to the principles this country was founded on. It sounds like something you would see in China or Cuba... But maybe we're never that free. These things started out with good intentions, but evolved (just like sororities, fraternities, and most unions) to be yet another way for someone else to control your life. We already have our bosses at work, and the government - you'd think that would be more than enough. But apparently people pay good money to get bossed around by their "peers". It has pervaded our society to the point where it's sometimes necessary to submit (if you want to work in certain fields, or own a house). What are these neighborhoods trying to prove? There should be local police to take care of crack houses and loud noises. Instead, they want all the houses to look alike. To be the same color. To have the same neatly trimmed yards and cars tucked inside garages and fully intact basketball nets. Well, that's not going to change what's inside. I'm not talking about the inside of the house, but the people. No matter what the facade, you can have individuals who are just as corrupt, unwholesome, etc. and can hide from themselves because they're in a group of people whose houses look alike and don't have old cars up on blocks in the front yard. And they don't want "low-income" housing... why? Are they afraid of people from other classes of society? People of certain skin colors? (I hope not, but where I used to live in the South, people would routinely talk about "having to move out of the neighborhood because black people are moving in"... sad but true.) I can understand worrying about crime, so when apartments are built they should be more concerned about how good their background checks are. (but never mind... I'm one of those low-life apartment dwellers, and according to that one city's definition I'm on the verge of "low-income". So some of us are representing the unwashed masses here. ) When I can afford a house, I'll try to get one in a non-trendy area, away from HOAs if at all possible, so I can have as many cars, cats, dogs, children as I see fit. Hopefully it will be an older house, or one off the beaten track... but who knows what you can realistically get these days. Anyway, off my soapbox for now. ------------------ Isabel,clutchcity.net lurker since 1996 All your base are belong to Heypartner.
I agree with Achebe that when you know the rules going in, you lose a bunch of your right to complain, in general. Though we've clearly seen instances where HOAs have used selective "prosecution" (for lack of a better word) or have overstepped their bounds or abused their power. As for the questions about whether I would care if my next door neighbor painted his house in psychedelic colors, I wouldn't care. It doesn't make any difference to me. There are plenty of houses that I find very ugly in my neighborhood, but that's a matter of taste. I'm not going to try and impose my taste on someone else. You want to keep campers out? Fine. You want to prevent people from keeping project cars in their driveways? More power to you. But when we talk about making people conform to what these nine people think looks nice as far as colors, or as far as how many cars one owns. I think that's overstepping what should be the authority of the HOA. But then again, I would go out of my way to keep from moving into such a neighborhood (or I'd at least find out all the rules and everything before moving in and make sure I could live with them... Of course the problem with that is that these rules can change over time. I believe the board can vote to change the rules). ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com
The thing is there are a lot of local laws that are generally concerned with public safety, and some other issues (excessive street vehicle parking, out of control lawns). Also, if someone is breaking the law, well then call the police if you want to. Most CC&Rs address aesthetics. Like I said, there is a place for CC&R's, but they severely need to be reigned in. And when a CC&R gets it the way of sound conservation in places with scare resources, well we need local, state and federal laws to supercede to put the homeowners associations in their place. This is America for pete's sake, you know, freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These are rights, they are not something any governmental like agencies, included HO (which by the way are more established by developers than citizens), should be able to infringe on a mere whim. While I also agree you have less of an argument if the rules are in place before you move in, but what if they are imposed after (I am not sure if this happens with CC&R, though it does with city ordinaces?). But just because the rule is in place before you move does not mean it should be always valid. If the CCRs said you must give up controversial speech to live in a community, do you really think that is a right for you to give up? Further, to put the aesthetics aspects of CC&Rs over public interest is asinine. Finally, there are big differences between the function and role of CCR's for an individual home versus a condo, let us just start with he fact individual homeowner owns their land and generally doesn’t share common areas nor walls. [This message has been edited by Desert Scar (edited May 02, 2001).]
Oh, no, not multi-colored houses and weeds in the front yard. The humanity!!! We're not talking about a rundown inner city neighborhood. We're talking about subdivisions. I don't dispute the Winnebagos or boats in the street - they represent a traffic problem - but I just don't get the rest of it. I have houses all around me in varying degrees of repair. My home is landscaped with native Texas "weeds" and I usually don't cut my ditch because wildflowers grow there. I have double-digit cats living in my house. Our neighbor built a screened-in porch about 30 feet from our house with a screened-in cat run connecting it to our house so the cats can get to it without having to actually go outside. None of that would fly in a suburb. My issue here is more than personal freedom. My problem is threefold: 1. It is MY property. I own it. I live on it. I make the decisions about it. If I'm not breaking laws, I should be free to do what I like. My house being bright blue or pink is my choice. Style is none of your business when it comes to my home. 2. Our choices are dwindling. More and more HOA's are taking over neighborhoods. The more that are added the fewer housing choices we all have. I, for one, like diversity in my neighborhood, but that is being squelched daily. I don't care if you want to live in a neighborhood where all the choices are made for you, but don't tell me where I can live. Isn't that what America is all about? We are free to choose the things we want. 3. The resources these associations have at their disposal are terrifying. Not only are they backed by all the dues paid but also by larger national neighborhood groups, lawyers and even state and local laws. The single homeowner has no recourse. What is even more frightening is the fact that we have no choice when we move into a neighborhood. Once you buy the home the deed restrictions are built into the contract. If you don't like something and end up going to court, YOU pay all the legal fees of the association. That has the chilling effect of discouraging dissent among residents. Here's a small list of things that are routinely included in covenants: [*]Limitations on the number and type of pets you may have. Many are limited to two cats OR dogs and the vast majority of other animals (birds, reptiles, small mamals, etc) are banned. [*]House paint choices. There are approved color schemes in most neighborhoods with HOA's. [*]Limitation on the number of cars you may have at your home. It doesn't matter if they are in your driveway on your property. [*]Limitation of fencing. Ironically, the picture of the classic American home usually includes a tire swing and a white picket fence - possibly a gazebo or porch. Funny how neighborhoods don't have these any longer. [*]Restriction on the type and number of plants in your front and back yard. Lawns are horrible for the environment because the majority of them are not native to the soil. In addition, we have to pour chemicals on them to keep them healthy and that runs off into the sewers. Nevermind the leaf blowers and lawn mowers that create noise pollution and emissions. Oh, and don't forget about all the water you'll waste trying to keep that St. Augustine alive. Forget about native trees and plants that are not just good for the environment but encourage birds and wildlife. [*]Restrictions on changing your home. Many neighborhoods won't allow additions like decks, second stories or swimming pools, but what about indoor?. It is becoming more and more common to restrict what a person can do to alter the inside of their home as well. These are just a few of the more charming restrictions you'll find. My biggest complaint isn't that people want them. My problem is that it is getting harder and harder to find affordable housing without them. Our fundamental choice of how we wish to live is being taken away without our being asked and I HATE that. ------------------ So, I took the million dollars and bought a steam shovel...
Heb, That works nice until you take into account that the board can change the rules after you move in. None of the things that I listed were part of the original bargain. So to say that I am a whiner or idiot because I don't like the rules that a bunch of old farts decided upon in their little meetings (in which they will not allow you to participate by the way), is rediculous and a little insulting. These homes were advertised for middle aged people and that is who the rules were designed for. I cannot control who buys the houses and it just so happens it was old people who have one car and nothing stored in their garage. The elect like minded people and if you happen to not be like them, you are ****ed. ------------------ "Of course, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong" -- Dennis Miller
Can CC&Rs be created once you already live in a community? If so that is really scary. There minimally should be a law grandfathering persons from CC&Rs if they lived there before the rule was created. As I said before, just because the rule was in place before you move in does not mean it should "always" be valid, though it does make more grey areas. To me however, to be valid and enforcable a CC&R must serve a reasonable and specified function, and must be imposed uniformily. But the reverse, if true, that CC&Rs could impact you after you bought your house, that is completely, wholeheartedly, UnAmerican.
Hydra, I apologize if I unfairly extrapolated my condo experience to your neighborhood assoc. experience... I was primarily venting b/c I live w/ a bunch of dumbasses that either: a) don't pay their bills or b) when they damage something in the common areas (garage doors, etc.) they try to get away w/o paying for it. Also, does your association truly change laws by a little select group of homeowners? We have monthly meetings in my condo, and quarterly meetings where any covenants, etc. are discussed. To change a law, at least 50 homeowners must be present (50 homeowners from 50 distinct units, not 2 from the same condo) and 65% or more have to agree w/ the change. Last quarter, the treasurer had to go and dig up 15 homeowners so that we could get video cameras installed in the parking garages. I don't know if it's just UT law, or if it's my particular HOA, but our group is populist b/c it has to be. Also, character issues such as pastels, etc. don't come up merely b/c it's an 8 story brick building. My wife did plant a bunch of wildflowers in the back w/ a few of the widows that live here though... and obviously nothing was said. Jeff, you own what the deed says that you own. Why does it matter anyway? Suburbs inherently take on a 'particular look' of the developer. Like minded people that are worried about what the other neighbor is driving move in, and later all buy the same genetically modified boring plants. There's no such thing as character in a suburb. You'll never miss out on anything by staying in your own neighborhood. It sounds as if you have a place w/ a quality to it, so I doubt that you'll be too pressed to move into a different house anytime soon, let along in suburbia. Luckily for me, the only homes I would think about living in in Salt Lake are not in prototypical suburbias... and zero scaping is pretty big even in the areas that do have covenants. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
Yep, a small group of people is elected and then they have unlimited power to make any new regulations that they choose (within the law of course, no people on the streets after 5 will be shot rules). ------------------ "Of course, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong" -- Dennis Miller
Oh yeah, and just so I wasn't too agreeable, I did want to reiterate again that you own what the deed says you own. When a developer completes a condo or PUD, s/he draws up a HOA fund, decides upon the relevant covenants and turns over the funds (a month or two months mortgage amount per unit sale) to the incoming HOA administration. Then the owners kick back, and let the association do a bunch of work. This is perfect for people like me that weren't ready for yardwork (in my scenario as a condo owner), or for my wife, who wasn't ready for the baggage and permanence of a home (let alone in Salt Lake, right hon? ). Obviously it's also great for widows and seniors, students, etc. PUDs are great for business majors and Celine Dion afficianados. The thing is, when any group of people elects to join a common, or form a social contract, they waive some rights. In some neighborhoods, you might have to sell that 5th car. In other neighborhoods, you might not be able to implement your Hundertwasser add-on. But... the great thing is that you are never forced to buy a PUD home or a condo. Covenants are a total package w/ a PUD or condo. If that package isn't attractive to you, then the developer probably didn't have you in mind. Hydra is unfortunately in a bad situation in which the dead squad occassionally implements new rules, such as dinner at 4:30 p.m. I think, though, that it's safe to say that's a rare occurrence. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
It sounds as if you have a place w/ a quality to it, so I doubt that you'll be too pressed to move into a different house anytime soon, let along in suburbia. Yes, but I can afford it. You obviously can as well. The problem is that many affordable suburbs don't offer the same qualities mine do. My concern is for those who want to live in affordable housing but also want choices with regard to how they want to live. Home buying choices are of significant importance to quality of life. You want a nice neighborhood, a good area, good schools, etc. Our choices should not be limited by neighborhood associations based on asthetic and exclusionary concepts. ------------------ So, I took the million dollars and bought a steam shovel...
ArtVandolet, The ruts in the yard are one thing, but on the flag, it is America, you know "Land of the free, etc..." Why didn't you or one of his neighbors erect a Black Panther flag or something in retaliation? ------------------- Isabel, This is not aimed specifically at you, Isabel. I am just totally sick and friggin' tired of hearing how "bad it is in the South". Of the people that I know from the North, and especially the North East, they are easily more racist than the percentage of Southerners I know. I just hear that stupid myth about how good things are up in the North and it sickens me. Sorry for going off on a tangent there. ------------------- Jeff, Cool. Ima get me one a them. ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page
