High points include..... --Islam "a main source" for all laws --no laws can be enacted that contradict Islamic teaching Welcome to Iran Junior. Is this what we have spent lives and treasure on...an Islamic Theocracy in lockstep with Iran?????? Still wonder why Bush's popularity is falling through the floorboards?? http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news...3450002374168&dt=20050822134500&w=RTR&coview= Iraq draft says laws must conform to Islam -text BAGHDAD, Aug 22 (Reuters) - A draft constitution for Iraq to be presented to parliament on Monday will make Islam "a main source" for legislation and ban laws that contradict religious teachings, members of the parliamentary drafting panel said. One said the text, agreed by the ruling Shi'ite and Kurdish coalition over Sunni Arab objections, would read: "Islam is a main source for legislation and it is not permitted to legislate anything that conflicts with the fixed principles of its rules." Shi'ite delegate Jawad al-Maliki said the wording was fixed. It appeared to be something of a compromise after secular Kurds had objected during negotiations to Islam being "the main source" of laws. It was not clear how legislation would be subjected to the test of conforming to Islamic principles. Critics have accused Shi'ite Islamists who dominate the interim government and parliament of planning to impose clerical rule in the style of neighbouring Shi'ite Iran. They deny it. Kurds had complained that U.S. diplomats, who have insisted that women and minorities should enjoy equal rights, had conceded ground to the Islamists in order to meet Monday's deadline for passing a draft constitution in the legislature.
I can't believe that you are equating Iraq with America. But whatever floats yer boat I guess. But one minor point. Grassroots democracy is a little different than forcing democracy at the point of a gun. Anyhoo… Iraq be damned! This "constitution was rammed through by the neocons in order to keep on the timeline! Who gives a **** about women rights, religious freedoms and the rule of law. All so Georgie boy can say "See! It's done!" What a load of crap! WHAT DID OUR BOYS DIE FOR???????? Is there any doubt that this "constitution" will be voted down? Civil war here we come! And our boys right in the middle of it!
So what would you have us do? Force them to mimic our constitution? The question has been asked many times of what if Iraq with their democracy chooses Islam? I think we are allowing them to be a democracy and choose their path as long as its a representative one. If Iraq does become a free state w/ some islamic ideals, then maybe many of the extremists will realize that Iraq is a better place than before and that idea of a government that is not a corrupt dictatorship will spread throughout the middle east and the muslim world. I think that and a peace with the Isreali's (which is heading in some direction) really can change the face of the US to many muslims in the world and stop what many predict will be the next great conflict. If things happen this way i'm sure Bush will be looked upon in the future as a hero.
i can't believe you managed an entire post of your own thoughts! i do find the extra carriage returns a bit annoy ing however.
How the White House Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Islamic Law “The advance of women’s rights and the advance of liberty are ultimately inseparable.” – President Bush, 3/14/04 “President Bush has made the advance of women’s human rights a global policy priority. … We all have an obligation to speak for women who are denied their rights to learn, to vote or to live in freedom.” – First Lady Laura Bush, 3/8/05 “The commitment of this administration to women’s rights in Iraq is unshakable.” – Labor Secretary Elaine Chao, 3/9/04 “There can be no compromise on the principle that Iraqis can each have an equal role in the building of their country’s future without regard to their ethnic or religious background or gender.” – U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad, 8/8/05 http://thinkprogress.org/2005/08/22...earned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-islamic-law/
MC Mark stated it perfectly in an earlier post...."Grassroots democracy is different than forcing democracy at the point of a gun". An Iraq led by an Islamic Theocracy that is in lock-step with Iran is a bigger threat to the United States than Saddam ever was.
This is pretty complicated. Iraqis should be able to choose what type of govt. they want to rule them. That is how a democracy works. We should have known what kind of govt. they would lean towards. Is having that kind of govt. worth all the death distruction increased terrorism etc.? Will a theocracy in the middle east put the pressure on other nations to rise up against fundamentalist extremism that breeds terrorism? Who in Iraq will benefit from this type of govt? Who in Iraq will be worse off than they were under Saddam? I think this is one reason why you don't force democracy on a people. They should make that decision for themselves, and we should support and influence them by showing them the benefits of choosing an American style democracy. The ability to model how great democracy can be was not available in Iraq. Instead they saw us torture, appoint crooks like Chalabi, allow looting, not be able to restore power etc. There were plans for all of these things including a constitution, but the Pentagon and the Whitehouse vetoed the state departments plan. Had the Iraqis done this on their own, and then asked us for help we could have gone in there and provided help rebuilding and different services that really would have made them grateful.
1) oil (long-run) 2) a strategic advancement to the fight against terror (base in middle of Iran-Syria-Saudi) 3) ability to remain a hegemon 4) economic growth (long-run)
I don't think that Islam is going to play a role in their government is the biggest problem. There are Islamic republics like Malaysia that seem to be able function well and be progressive on some level. I think the bigger problem is that Iraq is a colonial relic of antagonistic ethnicities that have been held together by a string of dictators. Even before the war I predicted that Iraqi democracy would end up in either a theocracy with dictatorial leanings or unstable confederation headed towards civil war. I think we're seeing signs of those in the wrangling over the Constitution. I hope the Iraqis can pull things together for their sake and ours but I'm not optimistic.
Good news! Now the Muslims around the world will know for a fact the the US is NOT anti-Islam, but actually through democracy they can have what they want. This might put the Islamists on our side and end terrorism directed at the U.S. Seriously though, if ANYTHING, this would provide the necessary legitimicay to the Iraqi government, and would hopefully create at least one point of agreement between the Sunnis and Shi'ites. I think at this early stage in Iraq's democratic experiment, stability/security trumps anything else. The Constitution was made to be easily amended later on, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. The bottom line is I want to see a stable Iraq and us getting our troops our of there. I could care less what the IRaqis willingly choose to live under; that is democracy folks. Kudos to the US for not acting hard-headed and being flexible/sensitive to what the IRaqis want. BTW, here is an article that mentions some of the positive developments in Iraq, although I would venture to say the author is being a bit too optimistic: http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins200508220811.asp Marriage on the Rocks Is al Qaeda of Iraq wearing out its welcome? Could the Sunnis be the solution to the problem of al Qaeda in Iraq? Recent events have shown that the marriage of convenience between domestic opponents to the new Iraqi government and foreign terrorists seeking to foment a civil war may be headed for annulment. The strain has been showing in recent weeks in Ramadi, the capital of al Anbar province, along the Euphrates River west of Baghdad. Seeking to incite a violent confrontation, Zarqawi's terrorists had ordered members of the city's Shia minority to get out of town. On August 13, they tried to eject them by force, and found the way barred by armed Sunni militia. The ensuing gun battle lasted for an hour before Zarqawi's fighters retreated. On August 18 a group of mostly Sunni political, tribal, and religious leaders (including the governor of al Anbar), hosted by the influential Association of Muslim Scholars, were meeting in a mosque discussing the new constitution when Zarqawi's men opened fire on them. The next day Abu Muhammad Hajeri, a Saudi leader in Zarqawi's group, was found dead with three other members of the group, killed by local tribesmen in retaliation. Infighting like this is not unprecedented — last March seven foreign fighters were killed in Ramadi, allegedly as reprisal for the assassination of a prominent member of the Dulaimi tribe and former officer in Saddam's fedayeen militia who was working with Coalition forces in Fallujah. The Dulaimi are one of the largest tribes in Iraq, and had enjoyed a measure of autonomy under Saddam's regime. They boycotted the January 2005 elections, but have since moved towards sanctioning limited participation in the political process. The Dulaimi led the defense of the Shia families in Ramadi; such a prominent Sunni group becoming engaged in the political system cannot be good news for Zarqawi. Zarqawi's group styles itself as an insurgency, and in the grand scheme of things they aspire to be regional or even global revolutionaries under the leadership of Osama bin Laden. However, their biggest problem in Iraq is that they have no popular base. Their main sources of support are external forces seeking to destabilize the country, such as Iran, Syria, and some private interests in Saudi Arabia. Zarqawi's domestic backers only lend him aid as a matter of expediency and opportunism; it is nice to have a supply of foreign suicide attackers around. But this commonality of interests will not last forever — indeed the worm seems to be turning — and when al Qaeda becomes more liability than asset the Sunnis may well start cashing in on the millions we are offering in reward money. Al Qaeda has not been particularly adept at achieving its goals in Iraq. Sure, they can kill people — more often than not Iraqis — but their acts of violence have not drawn them noticeably closer to their strategic objectives. For example, we know that al Qaeda is seeking to foment ethnic civil war in Iraq. Zarqawi's group has lately been focusing attacks on the Badr Corps, the main Shia militia, trying to incite them to general war on the Sunnis. Shia leaders have wisely not allowed themselves to be baited; the political drift is in their favor, and it would be foolish to play Zarqawi's game. So insistent are the Shia on keeping the peace that Grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani has issued a fatwa against using the terms "Sunni," "Shia," and "Kurd," in favor of the word "Iraqi." Likewise the terrorists have also not been able to derail the march towards democracy. The success of the January election showed they could not cow people seeking to express their sovereign will. Death threats and assassinations have no slowed the process of drafting the new constitution. Moreover, the October constitutional referendum presents the terrorists with a conundrum. The constitution can be defeated if enough people oppose it, but al Qaeda has already said that those who participate will be considered heretics and be killed. Even opponents of the document see how foolish this position is, and one Sunni cleric in Fallujah issued a fatwa encouraging people to register to vote to preserve their option to vote "no." But the foreign terrorists are true to their word, which is what led to the attack in Ramadi on the Sunni leaders discussing the constitution. As more Sunnis realize that their interests are diverging from those of the terrorists, we will see more such episodes, and more deadly retaliation against the terrorists. Al Qaeda will not foment ethnic conflict but rather incite the more politically savvy opposition groups to begin to roll up the terrorist networks. Watch for more statements calling for the withdrawal of all foreign elements from Iraq, whether Coalition forces or Zarqawi's multinational terrorist troop. In the long run, of course, we would be happy to leave; and if the Sunnis want to clean out the foreign terrorists who are making life increasingly difficult for them, we can exit even sooner. — James S. Robbins is senior fellow in national-security affairs at the American Foreign Policy Council, a trustee for the Leaders for Liberty Foundation, and an NRO contributor.
security for america. i'm guessing by all the posturing going on in here, that no one has actually read the text: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-Constitution-Text.html -- Text of Proposed Iraq Constitution Chapter One Article One The Republic of Iraq is an independent state. Article Two The political system is republican, parliamentary, democratic and federal. 1. Islam is a main source for legislation. -- a. No law may contradict Islamic standards. -- b. No law may contradict democratic standards. -- c. No law may contradict the essential rights and freedoms mentioned in this constitution. 2. This constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the Iraqi people and guarantees all religious rights; all persons are free within their ideology and the practice of their ideological practices. 3. Iraq is part of the Islamic world, and the Arabs are part of the Arab nation. 4. a. Arabic and Kurdish are the two official languages, and Iraqis have the right to teach their sons their mother language like the Turkomen and Assyrian in the government educational institutes. b. The language used orally in official institutions such as the Parliament and the Cabinet as well as official conventions should be one of the two languages. c. Recognizing the official documents with the two languages. d. Opening the schools with two languages. Article Three Federal institutions in Kurdistan should use the two languages. Article Four The Turkomen and Assyrian languages are the official languages in the Turkomen and Assyrian areas, and each territory or province has the right to use its own official language if residents have approved in a general referendum vote. Article Five Power is transferred peacefully through democratic ways. Article Seven 1. Any organization that follow a racist, terrorist, extremist, sectarian-cleaning ideology or circulates or justifies such beliefs is banned, especially Saddam's Baath Party in Iraq and its symbols under any name. And this should not be part of the political pluralism in Iraq. 2. The government is committed to fighting terrorism in all its forms, and works to protect Iraqi soil from being a center or passage for terrorist activities. CHAPTER TWO Article 35 -- a. Human freedom and dignity are guaranteed. -- b. No person can be detained or interrogated without a judicial order. -- c. All kinds of physical and psychological torture and inhumane treatment are prohibited, and any confession is considered void if it was taken by force, threats and torture. The person who was harmed has the right to ask for compensation for the financial and moral damage he/she suffered. Article 36 The State guarantees: 1. Freedom of expression by all means. 2. Freedom of the press, printing, advertising and publishing. Article 37 Freedom to establish political groups and organizations. Article 39 Iraqis are free to abide in their personal lives according to their religion, sects, beliefs or choice. This should be organized by law. CHAPTER THREE Article 66 A presidential candidate should: 1. Be Iraqi by birth and the offspring of two Iraqi parents. 2. Be no less than 40 years old. 3. Have a good reputation and political experience, and be known as honest and faithful to the nation. Article 75 The prime minister should have all the qualifications as the presidential candidate and should have a university degree or its equivalent and should not be less than 35 years old. Article 104 A general commission should be set up to observe and specify the central (government) revenues, and the commission should be made up of experts from the central government, regions, provinces and representatives. CHAPTER 4: Article 107 Federal authorities should preserve Iraq's unity, security, independence and sovereignty and its democratic federal system. Article 109 Oil and gas are the property of all the Iraqi people in regions and provinces. Article 110 The central government administers oil and gas extracted from current wells, along with governments of the producing regions and provinces, on the condition that revenues are distributed in a way that suits population distribution around the country. CHAPTER FIVE Article 114 1. A region consists of one or more provinces, and two or more regions have the right to create a single region. 2. A province or more has the right to set a region according to a referendum called for in one of two ways: -- a. A demand by one-third of all members of each of the provincial councils that aims to set up a region. -- b. A demand by one-tenth of voters of the provinces that aim to set up a region. Article 117 A region's legislative authority is made up of one council, named the National Assembly of the region. Article 118 The National Council of the region drafts the region's constitution and issues laws, which must not contradict this constitution and Iraq's central laws. Article 120 The executive authority of the region is made up of the president of the region and the region's government. Article 128 The region's revenues are made up from the specified allotment from the national budget and from the local revenues of the region. Article 129 The regional government does what is needed to administer the region, especially setting up internal security forces, such as police, security and region guards. Article 135 This constitution guarantees the administrative, political, cultural and educational rights of different ethnic groups such as Turkomen, Chaldean, Assyrians and other groups. CHAPTER SIX Article 144 The Iraq Supreme Criminal Court continues its work as a legislative, independent commission to look into the crimes of the former dictatorial regime and its symbols, and the Council of Deputies has the right to annul it after it ends its duties. Article 145 a. The Supreme National Commission for de-Baathification continues its work as an independent commission, in coordination with the judicial authority and executive institutions and according to laws that organize its work. b. Parliament has the right to dissolve this commission after it ends its work, with a two-thirds majority. Article 151 No less than 25 percent of Council of Deputies seats go to women. Article 153 This law is considered in force after people vote on it in a general referendum and when it is published in the official Gazette and the Council of Deputies is elected according to it.
