Public sponsorship of prayer in school (i.e. using my tax dollars to support your version of prayer) is a bad idea. It may be a powerful picture to say look at Columbine, there has to be prayer at school. However, it is just a poor excuse to avoid the real problems of the situation: parents not properly guiding their children, schools not taking enough of an advisory role, etc, etc. Forcing religion on students of varying backgrounds solves no problems, only creates them. You are better off trying to come up with realistic solutions to today's problems. ------------------ Haha.. you fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is: Never get involved in a land war in Asia. Only slightly less well know is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!
Great job at constructively replying to this thread. Can you remind what the second amendment has to do with the topic at hand? Plus the joke may be funny, but hardly relevent. Lord Tree ------------------ Who is Lain?
Freedom of religion, not freedom _from_ religion. The first amendment promises us the right of free speech; prayer is a form of free speech. (as is meditation, praying to Mecca, whatever) Schools should certainly not force people to pray; however, allowing volunteers to lead prayers doesn't cost anything (no tax dollars for those who worry about that) and provides an opportunity for students to acknowledge their spiritual side. No one has to participate if they don't want to. Schools should be places where ideas circulate freely - and that includes religious ideas. The possibility that, yes, there might be a God after all. Why should parents want to restrict what their children hear about? It's not fair to deprive the children of knowledge... if they don't like it, they can start a private "atheist academy". ROXRAN is right; there is good and evil in all of us, and when we do not acknowledge our spiritual dimension, the evil (selfishness, disregard for others, disregard for human life) tends to win. For Columbine, it is too late to say what "might have happened if...", but the number of violent incidents in schools recently suggests that young people need more guidance than they are getting right now. ------------------ Isabel,clutchcity.net lurker since 1996 All your base are belong to Heypartner.
There's nothing wrong with studying religions in a historical context (we did that at my high school in Western Civilization class), but we're talking about state-run prayer in schools. We're talking about forcing students who don't want to pray to do so (and pray by the school's standards, regardless of what the student's relgions may be. Even the various Christian religions have variations in their belief systems, which would easliy cause problems.) And this whole, if parents don't like it, they can start their own schools is stupid. Considering that the Supreme Court says state-sponsored prayer is still improper, it's really up to the parents who want their kids to have a religious education to send their kids to religious schools (it's not as if there aren't any). Though I don't know that it will end up making much difference. My sister went to Catholic school, yet she is no more or less religious than I am (And I went to public school) and has almost no variation in morals from mine. Of the many people I've known who went to Religious schools, none of them are any different than I am. We've seen a school shooting at a Catholic school. We see violent acts committed by people who regularly attend church and consider themselves very religious. Religion doesn't seem to be the panacea that advocates claim. And I don't know about the rest of you, but anytime I was forced to do anything, the affect was often that I would rebel. Prayer should come from the heart. If a teacher stands up and makes us all pray (which is what we're talking about), then you'll end up with a bunch of people saying the words but not meaning them. How will that be any different than not having them pray at all? You can't force people to believe. ------------------ Houston Sports Board
Schools should certainly not force people to pray; however, allowing volunteers to lead prayers doesn't cost anything (no tax dollars for those who worry about that) and provides an opportunity for students to acknowledge their spiritual side. No one has to participate if they don't want to. This is already legal. No one has a problem with this. If a bunch of students want to get together during their free time and pray, that's not an issue. The issue is whether it can be done over the intercom or during required assemblies. That forces all students to listen and is illegal (and should remain so, in my opinion). Besides, if religion isn't being learned at home, then what makes anyone think it will be learned at school? Maybe the parents need to do their job before asking the schools to get involved in religion. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
Freedom of religion, not freedom _from_ religion. The first amendment promises us the right of free speech; prayer is a form of free speech. (as is meditation, praying to Mecca, whatever) Schools should certainly not force people to pray; however, allowing volunteers to lead prayers doesn't cost anything (no tax dollars for those who worry about that) and provides an opportunity for students to acknowledge their spiritual side. No one has to participate if they don't want to. Of course no one HAS to participate but how much pressure does it put on a child if he or she is the only one in class who refuses? How are they treated? What is the result? You are asking a group of students to lead a prayer that could potentially violate the religious beliefs of another. There are some religions that forbid even listening to the prayers of others. It is not for us to judge the belief, only to respect it. Schools should be places where ideas circulate freely - and that includes religious ideas. The possibility that, yes, there might be a God after all. I agree. But, how do you legislate that? Do you provide a religion class that studies every religion of the world equally? I can't imagine that Christian parents would realy want their kids learning about Islam in class. Free flowing ideas mean ALL IDEAS, not just the one's you want. That means witches, priests, rabbi's, shamen, monks, etc. must all have free access to children in the classroom for that free flow of ideas to happen. This is the very reason conservative religous groups have rejected the presidents faith-based charities initative. When they relized that non-Christian faiths would receive the same funding they would, they wanted no part of it. I don't see how this is different. Why should parents want to restrict what their children hear about? It's not fair to deprive the children of knowledge... if they don't like it, they can start a private "atheist academy". Of course a parent has a right to restrict their child's learning. If you don't want your child viewing violence or bad language on television, you take that away from them. This is no different. Would you then suggest that it is unfair of Christain parents to disallow their children from studying the beliefs of other cultures? You are opening up a can of worms here that is very dangerous. As for starting a private "atheist academy, " why is it that they must be the one's to start an academy? There are plenty of good Christian schools available already. I went to one. Personally, I don't want the government making this decision for parents. It isn't up to them. ROXRAN is right; there is good and evil in all of us, and when we do not acknowledge our spiritual dimension, the evil (selfishness, disregard for others, disregard for human life) tends to win. I agree with this in part. I do not personally believe in good and evil, per se, but that is for an entirely different thread. I do agree that ignoring our spiritual dimension does tend to create problems. However, that spiritual dimension can be nourished in a wide number of ways. For some, it is prayer. For others, a walk out in nature might do it (Walt Whitman comes to mind). Spirituality is a personal thing between ourselves and God (or whatever you believe in), not something we can dictate or legislate. For Columbine, it is too late to say what "might have happened if...", but the number of violent incidents in schools recently suggests that young people need more guidance than they are getting right now. There is no question this is true. However, ask any teacher why young people need more guidance and 9 out of 10 will tell you it is because they are not getting it from their parents. The buck begins and ends at home. One out of every three women will be sexually abused by the age of 16 - many of them by friends and family members. One in four children suffer from neglect, physical or emotional abuse in the home. Over 50 million children live below the poverty level and 10 million of those have no home. Until we work to solve the problems that abound in the homes where children spend the vast majority of time, no amount of prayer in school or well-intentioned programs run by teachers and students will fix the problem. Although I am in favor of gun control, even I will admit that they aren't the problem either. The problem is the fact that kids are disenfranchised, alone and desperate. Gangs are surrogate families and their numbers are growing, not diminishing. We cannot expect schools and the government to fix problems they didn't create. It is up to us. ------------------ And then, depression set in...
This was all I read of what I'm sure was a well thought out and articulate thought by Jeff, seriously... In response to your question(s)... God no, that would be worse than the shootings (or whichever of these represent sarcasm) Seriously I would have no problem with it , it's not gonna be me burning in Hell. No seriously now for real... If one's faith is from their heart it can only make them a better person. But I do believe only one of us can be right though... be cool.
I have a question for everyone that want school sponsored prayer. Why can't a student say a private prayer to him/herself? It always seemed to me that a prayer would have a lot more meaning if it was more personal. It's like a friend of yours birthday, you go out and buy a card with a little message on it. If you just give them a blank card with the company message on it, your friend wouldn't be that appreciative, but if you write a nice message to that person it would mean more to that person. I hope you guys are following my analogy. I mean I used to be in band so they'd always have the prayer before the game. I never participated in the prayer, but I stayed quiet out of respect for those that were praying. Maybe I'm just ignorant to what praying is all about, but I just don't see why a public prayer is needed when you could easily say a short prayer to yourself without affecting the people around you that might not believe what you believe. Also since I've only been out of highschool for a couple years, I will say that I don't think public prayer will do anything to help prevent violence in school. I mean we used to say the pledge of allegience everyday and I feel pretty safe in saying that it didn't make the majority of the students feel more patriotic. I think the reason for violence in school has more to do with the parents. I mean the relationship that I had with my parents back in highschool was almost non-existant. We all had our own things going on and so the only time we said anything to each other was just a "hi" or a "bye". The only time we actually sat down and ate together was for Christmas, Thanksgiving, and birthdays, that was it. The sick thing is I think my relationship with my parents was probably as good if not better than my friends relationships with their parents. Maybe someday it will be different and the next generation of parents will go back to connecting with their children and showing them love they need. I know whenever I have little Band Geek Mobsters I'll try to provide in ways my parents didn't. BTW I hate sounding like I'm bashing my parents, I think they did the best they could with me and I'm an alright dude b/c of it.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise .... surprise and fear .... fear and surprise .... Our two weapons are fear and surprise .... and ruthless efficiency .... Our three weapons are fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency .... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope .... Our four .... no .... Amongst our weapons .... Amongst our weaponry .... are such elements as fear, surprise .... I'll come in again.
From my understanding, this would have led to Columbine more quickly...students making others feel like they dont belong, etc, etc ------------------ Haha.. you fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is: Never get involved in a land war in Asia. Only slightly less well know is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!
You know, I made the mistake of showing my kids the episode of Monty Pythons Flying Circus with the Spanish Inquisition sketch. Now, we'll be driving along, and suddenly from the back seat will come the voice of my seven year-old saying "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" in as sinister a way as is possible for him. It was bad enough when they spent all day quoting lines from The Simpsons and Futurama (My favorite of these was when I pointed out to my seven year-old that Jennifer Aniston was married to Brad Pitt. He replies, "THE Brad Pitt?", to which I say "Yes". And then he says, "Who is THE Brad Pitt?" I love that joke), now they've added the twisted world of Monty Python. ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com
As I understand things, the following would NOT work at a public school: Imagine a religion club for an after school activity. All students of ALL religions (no matter how suspect that religion may be) are encouraged to participate. They will meet each week for one hour after school in a classroom. Each week one of the groups represented will take the first 15-30 minutes to inform the others of their beliefs. The group will be chosen at random, and all groups will have a turn before they get a second turn. They will share a "typical" prayer from their religion. After their presentation, the group will discuss differences, similarities and other aspects of the various religions. Now, for argument's sake, what is wrong with the above scenario? ------------------
That would have been just fine at my public high school, as long as the faculty did not "encourage" the student population to go. If this group put up banners etc like all the other clubs it would be perfectly legit and prob a darn interesting club. ------------------
I really struggle with this issue. As a Christian, I believe prayer and recognition of a supreme being is pretty healthy for society. Even if it's a different supreme being from the one I worship. Certainly we can all see the peaceful and quieting effects that religion has had on the life of one of our fave athletes, Hakeem Olajuwon. His faith pulls at his heart and empowers him to become a much more valuable member of society as he donates tons of money to charitable causes. HOWEVER...my wife teaches first grade...I can tell you right now, I don't want any of her teammates teaching my kids about God!!! There's one who is a lesbian who has been known to verbally assault Jesus Christ in front of the kids. I have a HUGE problem with that. Quite frankly, I don't trust these folks to teach my kids about God. Nonetheless, I don't think there's anything wrong with a moment of silence to begint the day. I don't think there's anything wrong with avoiding preaching moral relativism. I don't think there's anything wrong with a recongition that there is right and wrong. I just trust it to be taught more acutely to my children by me, my wife, my family and my church. ------------------
I have absolutely NO problem with that scenario whatsoever. I think it would be healthy as long as students were respectful of each others' religious beliefs. Personally, I think we need far more religous tolerance and that would seem to be a good start. Kids are far more open to possibilities than adults anyway. Now, the question becomes, would it work? Honestly, I think it would in some places. For example, if the school only had one religion represented or if the school was extremely diverse. I think the problem would be when one kid is one religion and the rest are another. That could be extremely awkward. The irony here is that all of the great spiritual minds down through time did not acquire their real spiritual voice until they were much older. Pretty much every great teacher began to come of age, spiritually, in their early 30's. That seems to be a common denominator in terms of age. I think encouraging children to be more spiritual and learn and understand religion better is a good thing, but I don't honestly believe that we can expect this act of learning to represent a leap forward in how we treat each other. It is but one piece of an immensely complex puzzle. MadMax understands just from his wife's experiences at school. I understand from my parents combined experiences in school over the course of 30+ years. The solutions are as vast as the problems and prayer in school is not really an answer. It could potentially even be more of a problem than a solution. ------------------ And then, depression set in...
We had religious clubs at my high school. They weren't officially sanctioned by the school like the Key Club and all that, but they were allowed to use school facilities (after school and before) and to put up posters and the like promoting their activites. The clubs weren't exactly what you were talking about (the one I remember was a Baptist club), but at least in my day (which was now over ten years ago, and some things have changed since then), such a club could have existed in my school. As for teaching morals and the difference between right and wrong, there's nothing that says that can't be done (and it is done). I can teach my kids right and wrong without using religion to do so. And, like I said before, we were taught about many religions in History class in high school. And also, I remember many times being invited to church by other students. Students had no problem sharing their faith with other students. There have been instances where schools or teachers have been hostile to religion (reportedly), but in my experience, that's not the norm. (And not allowing school-sponsored prayer is not, in my opinion, being hostile to religion). ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com
School prayer is a complete load of crap. I don't think many people realize how lucky we are in the United States. How would you feel if the rest of the class took out their prayer matts 3 times during school and bowed in prayer? I'd feel pretty alienated. When church and state get mixed up, bad things start happening. In no way is there harm in letting people practice religion quietly on their own. Do conservative Christians have some sort of insecurity complex? If you're strong in your faith, pray silently... it shouldn't bother you. I don't think we want to go back to the days when church and state were combined. Out of that comes persecution and bigotry. Go look at Iran, etc. I certainly wouldn' twant to be governed by Shari'a law. Furthermore, Darrell Scott has absolutely no more insight on this issue than anyone else. The idea that because his child was shot he has some amazing insight is ludicrous. The man had no business testifying before congress to begin with. There isn't a correllation between violence in schools and the ceasing of prayer. People are bombarded with different social messages from birth. There isn't any evidence ot suggest thta people brought up as atheists are intrinsically more violent than religious people. If religious people really elieve that prayer makes a difference, then they should attempt to reach people by other mediums. In a mass media society like the US, that isn't difficult. In any event, these shootings were caused by elitism and alienation. What exactly do you call doing something that is inherently isolating to a few people? I think that perpetuates the problem. The problem with allowing clubs, etc, to promote religion is that you *must* allow such for ALL faiths, no matter how offensive they are. That includes faiths such as Satanism, Islamic fundamentalism as advocated by the Taliban, and animism. ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001 [This message has been edited by haven (edited April 23, 2001).]
