You must get other substantiation besides something on geocities.com. Anyone can put something on Geocities.com, you need a more authoritative source than that. ------------------ Founder and President of the Houston Homers Club(HHC) - Are you a homer? Join now! The Rockets will be NBA champions. Believe.
In an effort to really derail this thread. Has anyone else noticed how quite our "allies" have been about this whole incident? No one's coming out in defense of the US's stance on this. Also, let me ask everyone a question. Do you think if the shoe was on the other foot, we'd be sending 24 Chinese spies back to China? And returning their spy plane? ------------------ Everything you do, effects everything that is.
From the same source: In 1924 the army of another warlord, Feng Yu-hsiang, surrounded the Forbidden City. But this warlord did not want to restore P'u Yi to his throne. Feng was both a Communist and a Christian, and an enemy of the Manchus. P'u Yi was forced to leave the Forbidden City for the first time since becoming emperor. In 1931 the Japanese army invaded Manchuria. At that time the Japanese military and the Japanese government were at odds. The government had never been happy about P'u Yi's association with the Japanese military, and it wasn't too happy about the invasion of Manchuria, either. But P'u Yi was delighted. He accepted the army's offer to smuggle him into Manchuria. It was 1934 before the Japanese agreed to make P'u Yi the Emperor of Manchukuo. He took the reign title K'ang Teh, or "Tranquility and Virtue." The Japanese provided him with a palace and money, and also made all the decisions for him. After his abdication the Soviets told P'u Yi that he would be flown to Japan, and could select eight people to accompany him. P'u Yi and his attendants were not taken to Japan, as they had been promised. Instead they were flown to the USSR and kept under house arrest. In 1946 P'u Yi was taken to Tokyo to testify against Japanese war criminals who had been his allies. He insisted that he had not acted freely in Manchukuo, but as a helpless puppet of the Japanese. After the trial he spent another four years in the custody of the Soviets. He was ousted by all sorts of people! ------------------ Whitey will pay.
Jim, I clearly wrote that I did NOT see anything about Communists. I believe you need to be more careful. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
Pu Yi, Henry (or H. P'u-i (1906 - 1967)) The last emperor of China (1908-12) as Xuan-tong (or Hsuan-t'ung). He became emperor at the age of two and abdicated two years later after the republican revolution of 1911. He was allowed to live in the summer palace on a government pension until the Japanese made him ruler, as Kang-de (or K'ang-te), of Manchukuo (1934-45). The Macmillan Encyclopedia 2001, © Market House Books Ltd 2000 The last emperor was done in 1912, and the Nationalist Chinese fell to the commies in 1949. Is the Macmillan Encyclopedia a good enough source? ------------------ Bob Rainey is my hero!
Jim and Rimmy: Jim, as Rimmy pointed out, I'm the first one here that said the Soviet's and Japanese banished the emperor; you don't need to teach me....but, he had already lost ruling power a long time ago to your revered ruling party that produced Chiang Kai-Shek. Hence the reason that communist revolution ousted the emperor (his dynasty) and the Soviets/Japanese ousted the emperor (his person) are both true statements. You are not following this, becuase you are stuck in a Western mindset. The last Dynasty of China ended to a revolution in the early century. However, they continued treating the emperor with respect...strange isn't it! The Soviets are the ones who viewed him as a threat, to prevent any type of imperial uprising. My point was to guide you down a historical path to show you that the "ruling govt" you want to protect with your Treaty is not some emperor's family or anything....he was a ruthless, dictator. But still, my point was to catch you saying that Chiang Kai-Shek is exiled ruler worth protecting, which you clearly cannot deny saying. Say it again....Jim. We like Chiang Kai-Shek. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 10, 2001).]
Yes, we would return them immediately, if there plane landed on our soil in distress. Two points- 1. Our plane was flying in international waters, so it was NOT a spy plane. A spy plane is a plane that flys over borders undetected. I realize this is a fine semantic point, but it is valid and important. 2. Both China and the United States signed on a treaty requiring that ships or planes in distress be given safe haven, and the same ships or planes remain the property of the originating country. We are only asking China to honor their word. The Red Chinese prove once again that their word means NOTHING. ------------------ Bob Rainey is my hero!
Damn this thread got lit up fast. This morning I was off to class when Jim started the thread, I come back and i see 65 posts. Don't mind me though. When I'm out of college, I'll get what I deserve when I'm sent off to China to fight the evil empire.
Sorry, but this point is irrelevant to to whether we should honor the treaty. Pole wrote- I Like General Tso's Chicken. I wish the thread would have ended with the above statement. I am gone for good this time. ------------------ Bob Rainey is my hero!
jim you are a war monger...get the f*ck out of here... your attitude makes me want to side with the freaking other side and I am supposed to be on your side.. believe me as well (and I dont care if i take flack for this) but I for one will not fight for idiots like you jim and your old school ways..you and your george bush are the reason we'll be in war..thanks alot you b*tch.. but i wont be there fighting for you..you can count on that.. Watch it. ------------------ "no matter how good she looks someone... somewhere..is tired of her sh*t" [This message has been edited by Administrator (edited April 16, 2001).]
As do I my friend, as do I. Did you know that General Tso was ousted by Col. Sanders, only to eventually try to take revenge on the Colonel by competing in the poultry industry. But alas, the General failed, and the only memory of him are the few buffets across the country that still sell that recipe. Anyway, a good thread. Great reading. I only wish I was a history buff so that I could contribute. Oh well....... ------------------ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
From Britannica.com: Shortly after Sun Yat-sen had begun to reorganize the Nationalist Party along Soviet lines, Chiang visited the Soviet Union in 1923 to study Soviet institutions, especially the Red Army. Back in China after four months, he became commandant of a military academy, established on the Soviet model, at Whampoa near Canton. Soviet advisers poured into Canton, and at this time the Chinese Communists were admitted into the Nationalist Party. The Chinese Communists quickly gained strength, especially after Sun's death in 1925, and tensions developed between them and the more conservative elements among the Nationalists. Chiang, who, with the Whampoa army behind him, was the strongest of Sun's heirs, met this threat with consummate shrewdness. By alternate shows of force and of leniency, he attempted to stem the Communists' growing influence without losing Soviet support. Moscow supported him until 1927, when, in a bloody coup of his own, he finally broke with the Communists, expelling them from the Nationalist Party and suppressing the labour unions they had organized. Chiang moved to Taiwan with the remnants of his Nationalist forces, established a relatively benign dictatorship with other Nationalist leaders over the island, and attempted to harass the Communists across the Formosa Strait. The chastened Chiang reformed the ranks of the once-corrupt Nationalist Party, and with the help of generous American aid he succeeded in the next two decades in setting Taiwan on the road to modern economic development. In 1955 the United States signed an agreement with Chiang's Nationalist government on Taiwan guaranteeing its defense. Beginning in 1972, however, the value of this agreement and the future of Chiang's government were seriously called in question by the growing rapprochement between the United States and the People's Republic of China. Chiang did not live to see the United States finally break diplomatic relations with Taiwan in 1979 in order to establish full relations with the People's Republic of China. Listed as a reason why he eventually lost out (among poor decision making and stubbornness): Chiang inexorably followed an increasingly conservative path that virtually ignored the plight of China's oppressed and impoverished peasantry. The peasants formed almost 90 percent of China's population, though, and it was their support, as demonstrated by the Communist victory, which proved crucial in once more establishing a strong central government that could achieve the modern unification of China. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
Time for a sweet and sour chicken break, everyone into a neutral corner please! ------------------ The ox is slow but the Earth is patient.
This tells me all I need to know about Jim. I'd bet my left testicle that we wouldn't be so quick to give a Chinese plane that had just killed one of our soldiers back. My guess is that we'd be hearing Dubya and the rest of America demanding an apology while we attempt to ransack the plane. ------------------ www.swirve.com I think my w**** is dead.
thank you Rimbaud. Dr. Sun Yet-sin is equivalent to Lenin in my mind. And Chiang Kai-Shek his disciple is like Stalin. Just like Lenin, Dr. Sun was very impressed with the writing of Marx. Funny how we just don't know much about Chinese history, like we do Western history like the Soviets. I cannot believe our Cold War propoganda has guys like Jim convinced Chiang Kai-Shek is something good.
Oh come on Jim It was a spy plane. So, why did we "destroy" all of the equipment on board before the Chinese could get to it? Call it what you want, but that's what it was. And don't think the US govn't wouldn't be screaming wholly hell if there was a Chinese "reconnaissance" plane flying in "international" air space off the coast of the US. You truly believe we would return their plane in a timely manner? LOL!!! ------------------ Everything you do, effects everything that is.
hehehehehe Funny I think that the Colonel has a disciple . . . Popeye who was a bit more 'spicy' and 'radical' than the Colonel Rocket River Forreal this thread is QUITE educational I learned more about Chinese history here than when I listened to the ART OF WAR on Cassette [I won't even mention college] ------------------
heyp, I like how it is called a "benign dictatorship" that he established in Taiwan...one which the US helped to build. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHH, you people keep dragging me back with your illogical arguments. LISTEN UP YOU ******* PUNK. WE DID NOT KILL THAT CHINESE PILOT. HE KILLED HIMSELF. IT IS TOO BAD THE CREW OF THAT PLANE CAN'T GET THEIR HANDS ON COMMUNIST APOLOGISTS LIKE YOU. Monday, April 9, 2001 11:46 p.m. EDT Pentagon Official: Chicom Pilot's Dangerous Manuever No Accident Pentagon officials now believe that a Communist Chinese fighter pilot who crashed into the South China Sea after colliding with a U.S. reconnaissance plane nine days ago deliberately tried to disrupt the American plane's airflow, a manuever that could have sent the larger aircraft into a potentially fatal tailspin. "It happened before," a senior Pentagon official told New York's Newsday on Sunday. In recent encounters, Finback fighter pilot Wang Wei "would get his wing close enough - his wingtip under our wingtip - to disrupt the airflow over our plane's wings." The unidentified Pentagon official explained that the loss of airflow can lead a plane to "stall, twist or drop." U.S. officials familiar with the surveillance operation, code named "Big Look," said the midair collision between Wang's plane and the EP-3E reconnaissance aircraft flown by Lt. Shane Osborne was likely caused "by Wang having stolen Osborne's airflow." Instead of sending the U.S. plane into a tailspin, Osborne compensated for Wang's manuever by dropping his wing to regain airflow. In the process, the EP-3's wing hit the Chinese fighter, sending Wang plummeting toward the sea. Navy investigators can't be 100 percent sure of the "disrupted airflow" theory until Osborne and his crew are released and can speak freely. But months before last Sunday's encounter, U.S. intelligence and military agencies had identified the Chinese pilot as "a skilled stick and rudder man who could coax his supersonic jet down to the estimated 300 mph speed of Big Look." The Pentagon source told Newsday that Wang was "known among Big Look pilots for trying to steal their airflow." That's why Navy brass are privately fuming over China's demand for an apology - because they believe Wang deliberately tried to bring down the U.S. plane with the dangerous maneuver that ended up costing his own life. ------------------ Bob Rainey is my hero!
