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Man Killed in London Not Linked to Blasts

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by thacabbage, Jul 23, 2005.

  1. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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  2. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    He comes from a poor and corrupt part of the world where police are not trusted. (That's not hard to beleive as blacks in Los Angles probably don't trust the police too much either.) He was scared because he didn't know who to trust and didn't speak English.

    Tragic.

    I'm not really second guessing the police but this can't continue to happen. If it happens again, the police's credibility will be in serious question.
     
  3. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    In addition the police were not wearing uniforms. They were plainly dressed.

    If a man who is not uniformed pulls a gun on someone and tells them to stop it is understandable he would run.

    The idea that some blame the terrorists is laughable. It isn't the person who pulled the trigger's fault.
     
  4. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    Just imagine if the victim had been a caucasian from Sweden or Holland or the US......oh, the outrage and remorse that would be pouring over the airwaves for weeks on end.....but hey, 7 shots to the head is just right for a Brazilian....and besides, British media (erroneously and likely intentionally) reported that his Visa had already expired anyways so serves him well...
     
  5. Eva123

    Eva123 Member

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  6. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    [This news, if confirmed, is very troubling and alarming. It contradicts many accounts that have been "reported" previously. This morning on my way to work, I saw a mother and her young boy waiting at a bus stop, both wearing padded jacket. The forecast today is sunny and 85F. They should be thankful they are not in London.]

    Shot Brazilian 'did not jump barrier and run'

    http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh...17.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/08/17/ixnewstop.html

    By Philip Johnston
    (Filed: 17/08/2005)

    [​IMG]
    Jean Charles de Menezes lies dead
    in the Tube train


    The Brazilian electrician shot dead by police on the London Underground last month was being restrained when he was killed by officers from Scotland Yard's firearms unit, according to documents leaked last night.

    Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, was shot seven times in the head by two plainclothes policemen who had followed him on to the train at Stockwell station in the mistaken belief that he was a potential suicide bomber.

    Documents and photographs leaked to ITV News also confirmed that Mr de Menezes did not run from the police, as had been reported, had used his Tube pass to enter the station, rather than vault the barrier, and had taken a seat on the train before being grabbed by an officer.

    He was wearing a light denim jacket and not as previously reported a padded coat which could have concealed explosives.


    The documents, which contain witness statements made to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, also suggest that the intelligence operation may have been botched because an officer watching a flat believed to be the hideout of one of the suspects in the abortive July 21 attack was "relieving himself".

    Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, has apologised for the death of Mr de Menezes and a senior officer has visited Brazil to talk to his family. However, the latest disclosures will cast fresh light on Sir Ian's insistence that the death was the tragic consequence of a legitimate operation.

    Shortly after the shooting, Sir Ian said: "Whatever else they were doing, they clearly thought they were faced with a suicide bomber and they were running towards him. Had that person been a suicide bomber and had the officers not fired and 25 yards up the track the bomb had exploded, the officers would be in a worse situation than they are now."

    He insisted that lethal force was the only option available to his officers once they had satisfied themselves Mr de Menezes was a suicide bomber. Yet a few days later, West Midlands police used a Taser stun weapon to arrest Yasin Hassan Omar, one of the July 21 suspects. Mr de Menezes was killed the day after the failed attacks on Tube trains and a bus.

    Guidelines issued since the September 11 attacks emphasise that police must not challenge suicide bombers or identify themselves for fear of prompting the bomber to detonate his device. Instead, they may fire a "critical head shot … prior to challenge".

    The complaints commission has taken statements from officers in the operation. Among the questions being asked is why the intelligence on the occupants of the flats suspected of harbouring the terror suspects failed to identify Mr de Menezes as an innocent party.

    It will also seek to establish why he was allowed to board a bus when buses had been targets in the two previous attacks. His family cannot reconcile the police assertion that he had to be stopped once he had boarded a Tube train with the fact that he got on to a bus.

    Questions will also be asked over why the impression that he was wearing a padded fleece was given continued credence when the photographs broadcast last night show him dressed differently. Wearing bulky clothing not in keeping with the weather is considered a sign of a potential suicide bomber.

    Scotland Yard said last night that it was unable to comment on any reports about the incident while it was being investigated.

    pjohnston@telegraph.co.uk
     
    #46 wnes, Aug 17, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2005
  7. mulletman

    mulletman Member

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    http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1550815,00.html

     
  8. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    As more details of the investigation have come out, the mistaken shooting of an innocent man demonstrates the ugliness of overzealotry in the midst of War On Terror, the inaccuracies of witness' sensationalized (or terrorized) "accounts", and how f*cked up this shoot-to-kill-in-order-to-protect policy could lead to.

    If you ever bother to go back to re-read some of the initial reports by the media, you'd find how huge the credibility gaps there were.

    Timeline: Tube shooting

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4159902.stm

    As leaked documents appear to throw new light on the mistaken shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, BBC News Website looks at the passage of events which led to his death and what followed.

    21 July: Two weeks after suicide bombs rocked London, the capital is again targeted

    London's transport network is plunged into chaos with stations cleared after attempted bombings on Tube trains at Oval, Warren Street and Shepherd's Bush Underground stations and on a number 26 bus in Bethnal Green.

    A manhunt is launched for four men suspected of attempting the bombings, later named as Yassin Hassan Omar, Ibrahim Muktar Said, Ramzi Mohamed and Osman Hussain.

    22 July: Police have been monitoring a flat in Scotia Road, Tulse Hill, south London, which they believe is linked to the failed bombings.

    At 0930 BST John Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian electrician, is seen walking to a bus stop and boarding a bus heading to Stockwell Tube station.

    Despite initial reports he was wearing a padded coat, leaked papers suggest Mr de Menezes is in a light denim jacket.

    According to a leaked report officers believe his "description and demeanour" matches one of two terror suspects, including the alleged Shepherd's Bush would-be bomber Osman Hussain.

    One surveillance officer at the Tulse Hill address says he "checked the photographs" and thinks it is "worth someone else having a look".

    He is quoted in the leaked report saying that he was unable to transmit his observations and turn on his video camera at the same time. "I was in the process of relieving myself."

    After information is passed through the operations centre, gold command instructs that the suspect be stopped from getting on the Tube.

    The operation is moved to "code red tactic" and handed over to CO19.

    By 1000 BST CCTV footage shows Mr de Menezes entering the Tube station at a "normal walking pace".

    Early accounts of the shooting had described him vaulting over the ticket barriers, running to the Tube train and tripping over before being shot - but leaked evidence states that CCTV pictures show him picking up a free newspaper and slowly descending on an escalator.

    He is then said to have run across the concourse to catch a train, boarded, looked left and right and then sat down on the first available seat.

    At that point, armed officers are "provided with positive identification", the document says.

    Following shouts including the word "police", Mr de Menezes gets up and advances towards the CO19 officers, a surveillance officer is quoted to have said.

    A member of the surveillance team describes grabbing him and holding him down.

    According to the report, he said: "I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.

    "I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting...I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage."


    Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, according to the post-mortem examination.

    Three other bullets missed their target.

    [Now review some of the "highlights" in the breaking news put out by the media in the aftermath.]

    By 1050 BST news of the shooting breaks in the media.

    Reports emerge that a suspected suicide bomber has been shot at Stockwell Tube.

    One eyewitness says he saw about 20 police officers, some of them armed, rushing into the station before a man jumped over the barriers with police giving chase.

    Another witness said the victim looked Pakistani and was wearing a thick winter coat.

    He described him as looking like a "cornered fox" as he was "hotly pursued".

    The witness said he half tripped and was then shot five times in the head.

    At 1150 BST Scotland Yard confirms that the man shot at Stockwell station died at the scene.

    At 1600 BST Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair says during a press conference that the shooting was "directly linked" to anti-terror operations.

    23 July: At 1700 BST Scotland Yard says the victim was not connected to attempted terror attacks on the capital.

    [I just can't believe all this BS.]

    A spokeswoman said: "For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."

    It is announced that the death is being investigated by officers from the Metropolitan Police Directorate of Professional Standards and will be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

    At 2130 BST Scotland Yard confirms the identity of the victim.

    25 July: At 1030 BST Scotland Yard Commissioner Sir Ian Blair apologises to Mr de Menezes' family but says there will be no change to the police's "shoot-to-kill" policy.

    That afternoon Prime Minister Tony Blair says he is "desperately sorry" about the death of an innocent person.

    An inquest in London hears Mr de Menezes was shot eight times.

    26 July: Protests are staged in Mr de Menezes' home town of Gonzaga, Brazil, in anger at his shooting. They demand arrests are made.

    27 July: Four cousins of Mr de Menezes hold a press conference in London demanding an end to the "shoot-to-kill" policy.

    One of them Vivien Figueiredo, says she has been told by police her relative was wearing a denim jacket at the time of the shooting and had used his travel card to get through the station.

    28 July: Mr de Menezes' body is flown home to south-eastern Brazil.

    The Home Office announces his visa expired two years ago, a move which is later criticised by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

    IPCC chairman Nick Hardwick says: "It's entirely irrelevant information. I'm rather surprised the Home Office should issue it."

    29 July: The funeral is held of Jean Charles de Menezes in his home town Gonzaga.

    To coincide, in London a vigil is held in Parliament Square followed by a Requiem Mass at Westminster Cathedral.

    2 August: Tony Blair is reported to have called the President of Brazil Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva to express his regrets for the killing and give assurances that there will be an independent probe into the shooting.

    17 August: Documents from the IPPC are leaked to ITV news apparently discrediting earlier reports of the shooting.

    Mr de Menezes' family again call for the "shoot-to-kill" policy to be suspended and for a public inquiry.
     
  9. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Looks like the British anit-terror authority now has an excuse: blame it on the guy who had to answer call from nature and missed the key moment to take a positive ID of the poor Brazilian youth.

    The question is, if not for the leak, will the British government candidly publish the full report?

    Some of their antics of smearing the victim were absolutely despicable and borderline criminal.
     
  10. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    What a tragedy.
     
  11. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    Governments are in the business of covering up, that's what they do best.

    Big surprise!
     
  12. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

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    we should have a thread with a title on the same lines

    country invaded not linked to wmds and 911
     
  13. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Covering up mistakes and overreacting to annihilate a perceived bombing suspect is one thing, outright lying is quite another.

    By claiming the Brazilian "acted suspiciously", "refused to obey police instructions", "running away from police", "wore an unseasonable padded coat", "vaulting over ticket barrier", etc., and not correcting these falsehoods afterwards in a timely fashion, the British government is committing horrendous misdeeds intentionally in the name of anti-terror.
     
  14. FranchiseBlade

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    These kinds of actions are horrible. Basically an innocent man was murdered by the police.

    It is true that based on the non-positive ID from the initial surveilance team they thought they what they were doing was preventing another suicide bombing. That does not excuse the cover-up and doesn't really excuse the killing of the man either.

    Over-reacting and fear really are the worst enemies. This is what happens as a result.
     
  15. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    What a screwed up total mess.

    Police 'boycott' of leak investigation

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1743823,00.html

    August 21, 2005
    David Leppard and John Follain

    THE row over the shooting of an innocent Brazilian man grew yesterday after Scotland Yard sources claimed that police were boycotting the independent watchdog that is investigating the incident.

    A senior police source claimed that the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has so far failed to persuade a single force to help the watchdog to discover who leaked embarrassing documents last week exposing police blunders during the incident last week.

    The leaked files revealed a series of fatal errors in the shooting of de Menezes by undercover firearms officers who mistakenly believed that he was a suicide bomber.

    “They can’t find anyone to do the leak inquiry for them. Nobody wants to do it,” a senior Metropolitan police official said yesterday. “You could interpret that as a show of unhappiness about the way the IPCC has behaved in this case.”

    The official indicated that police chiefs across the country were united with Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan police chief in anger against the IPCC and Nick Hardwick, its chairman, over the leak.

    The claim drew a furious response from John Wadham, the IPCC deputy chairman. “This is complete rubbish. We made an early decision not to use a police force for the review,” he said.

    The leaked file contradicted official police and witness accounts of the killing and suggested that police had tried to cover up the truth. Blair had originally said that de Menezes had acted suspiciously and refused to obey police instructions when challenged.

    It emerged last night that Blair did not know his officers had shot an innocent man until 24 hours after de Menezes was killed. The commissioner first learnt the Brazilian had no connection to the attempted London transport system bombings the next day.

    “Somebody came in at 10.30 [Saturday morning] and said the equivalent of ‘Houston we have a problem’,” Blair tells today’s The News of the World.

    “He didn’t use those words but he said, ‘We have some difficulty here, there is a lack of connection’. I thought, ‘That’s dreadful, what are we going to do about that?’.”

    The commissioner, who has been accused by critics of trying to cover up the circumstances surrounding the shooting asked the public to look at “the bigger picture”.

    However, the papers, leaked to ITV News, revealed that de Menezes was behaving normally when he was confronted and did not leap a ticket barrier or act suspiciously at the Tube station. The files showed that he had been sitting down when challenged and was actually being restrained by an undercover officer when he was shot.

    The feud between police chiefs and the IPCC is likely to be further fuelled by a separate police claim this weekend.

    An IPCC employee, said to be an administrator, was suspended last week over the leak. Police sources suggested yesterday that a friend of the woman had applied for a job at ITV News and had offered access to the documents as an example of the sort of material that he could provide, a claim denied by a senior insider at ITV News.

    The de Menezes family was reported yesterday to have said that Scotland Yard has already offered to pay £560,000 in compensation for the error.
     

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