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Evolutionists Battle New Theory on Creation

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by Timing, Apr 9, 2001.

  1. Timing

    Timing Member

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    This from the New York Times. Sorry for the length but it's a good article. Game on!

    April 8, 2001

    Evolutionists Battle New Theory on Creation

    By JAMES GLANZ

    When Kansas school officials restored the theory of evolution to statewide education standards a few weeks ago, biologists might have been inclined to declare victory over creationism.

    Instead, some evolutionists say, the latter stages of the battle in Kansas, along with new efforts in Michigan and Pennsylvania as well as in a number of universities and even in Washington, suggest that the issue is far from settled.

    This time, though, the evolutionists find themselves arrayed not against traditional creationism, with its roots in biblical literalism, but against a more sophisticated idea: the intelligent design theory.

    Proponents of this theory, led by a group of academics and intellectuals and including some biblical creationists, accept that the earth is billions of years old, not the thousands of years suggested by a literal reading of the Bible.

    But they dispute the idea that natural selection, the force Darwin suggested drove evolution, is enough to explain the complexity of the earth's plants and animals. That complexity, they say, must be the work of an intelligent designer.

    This designer may be much like the biblical God, proponents say, but they are open to other explanations, such as the proposition that life was seeded by a meteorite from elsewhere in the cosmos, possibly involving extraterrestrial intelligence, or the new age philosophy that the universe is suffused with a mysterious but inanimate life force.

    In recent months, the proponents of intelligent design have advanced their case on several fronts.

    ¶In Kansas, after the backlash against the traditional biblical creationism, proponents of the design theory have become the dominant anti- evolution force, though they lost an effort to have theories like intelligent design considered on an equal basis with evolution in school curriculums.

    ¶In Michigan, nine legislators in the House of Representatives have introduced legislation to amend state education standards to put intelligent design on an equal basis with evolution.

    ¶In Pennsylvania, where biblical creationists and design theorists have operated in concert, state officials are close to adopting educational standards that would allow the teaching of theories on the origin and development of life other than evolution.

    ¶Backers of intelligent design organized university-sanctioned conferences at Yale and Baylor last year, and the movement has spawned at least one university student organization — called Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness, or the IDEA club — at the University of California in San Diego.

    ¶The Discovery Institute, a research institute in Seattle that promotes conservative causes, organized a briefing on intelligent design last year on Capitol Hill for prominent members of Congress.

    "They are skilled in analyzing evidence and ideas," said Representative Tom Petri, a Wisconsin Republican and one of several members of Congress who was a host at the session in a Congressional hearing room. "They are making a determined effort to attempt to present the intelligent design theory, and ask that it be judged by normal scientific criteria."

    Polls show that the percentage of Americans who say they believe in creationism is about 45 percent. George W. Bush took the position in the presidential campaign that children should be exposed to both creationism and evolution in school.

    Supporters of Darwin see intelligent design as more insidious than creationism, especially given that many of its advocates have mainstream scientific credentials, which creationists often lack.

    "The most striking thing about the intelligent design folks is their potential to really make anti-evolutionism intellectually respectable," said Dr. Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education in Oakland, Calif., which promotes the teaching of evolution.

    Dr. Adrian Melott, a professor of physics and astronomy at the University of Kansas in Lawrence and a member of Kansas Citizens for Science, a group that helped win the restoration of evolution to the state education standards, said the design theory was finding adherents among doctors, engineers and people with degrees in the humanities.

    Intelligent design is "the language that the creationists among the student body tend to use now," Dr. Melott said.

    One of the first arguments for the design theory was set out in "Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution" (Simon & Schuster, 1996), by Dr. Michael J. Behe, a professor of biological sciences at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania. Dr. Behe argued that various biochemical structures in cells could not have been built in a stepwise Darwinian fashion.

    Since then, the movement has gained support among a few scientists in other disciplines, most of them conservative Christians.

    "I'm very impressed with the level of scientific work and the level of scientific dialogue among the leaders of the design movement," said Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez, an astronomer at the University of Washington in Seattle. The theory "warrants further research," Dr. Gonzalez said.

    Leaders of the design movement also look for flaws in evolutionist thinking and its presentation, and have scored heavily by publicizing embarrassing mistakes in prominent biology textbooks.

    "There is a legitimate intellectual project here," said Dr. William Dembski, a leading proponent of intelligent design who has a doctorate in mathematics from the University of Chicago and who is on the faculty at Baylor, which receives a small part of its financing from the Texas Baptist Convention. "It is not creationism. There's not a commitment to Genesis literalism."

    Dr. Dembski conceded that his interest in alternatives to Darwinian theory was partly brought on by the fact that he is an evangelical Christian, but he said intelligent design could withstand strict scientific scrutiny.

    "The religious conviction played a role," he said. But he added, "As far as making me compromise in my work, that's the last thing I want to do."

    Evolutionary biologists maintain that the arguments of intelligent design do not survive scrutiny, but they concede that a specialist's knowledge of particular mathematical or biological disciplines is often needed to clinch the point.

    I would use the words `devilishly clever,' " said Dr. Jerry Coyne, a professor of ecology and evolution at the University of Chicago, speaking of the way the theory is constructed. "It has an appeal to intellectuals who don't know anything about evolutionary biology, first of all because the proponents have Ph.D.'s and second of all because it's not written in the sort of populist, folksy, anti-intellectual style. It's written in the argot of academia."

    Despite that gloss, Dr. Leonard Krishtalka, a biologist and director of the University of Kansas Natural History Museum and Biodiversity Research Center, said recently, "Intelligent design is nothing more than creationism dressed in a cheap tuxedo."

    Dr. Dembski said his rather vague doubts about Darwinism did not take scientific shape until he attended an academic conference in 1988, just after finishing his doctoral thesis. The conference explored the difficulty of preparing perfectly random strings of numbers, which are important in cryptography, in computer science and in statistics.

    One problem is that seemingly random strings often contain patterns discernible only with mathematical tests. Dr. Dembski wondered whether he could devise a way to find evidence of related patterns in the randomness of nature.

    Dr. Dembski eventually developed what he called a mathematical "explanatory filter" that he asserted can distinguish randomness from complexity designed by an intelligent agent. He explained this idea in "The Design Inference" (Cambridge University Press, 1998).

    Dr. Dembski has applied his explanatory filter to the biochemical structures in cells — and concluded that blind natural selection could not have created them.

    But in a detailed critique of Dr. Dembski's filter theory, published in the current issue of the magazine The Skeptical Inquirer, Dr. Taner Edis, a physicist at Truman State University in Kirksville, Mo., said that while Dr. Dembski's mathematics were impressive, his analysis was probably detecting only the complexity that evolution itself would normally produce.

    "They have come up with something genuinely interesting in the information-theory arguments," Dr. Edis said of intelligent design theorists. "At least they make an effort to get rid of some of the blatantly fundamentalist elements of creationism."

    Dr. Behe, whose book provided the biochemical basis for Dr. Dembski's work, said he believed that certain intricate structures in cells, involving the cooperative action of many protein molecules, were "irreducibly complex," because removing just one of the proteins could leave those structures unable to function. If the structure serves no function without all of its parts, Dr. Behe asks, then how could evolution have built it up step by step over the ages?

    "I don't think something like that could have happened by simple natural laws," he said.

    Most biologists disagree.

    "It's flat wrong," said Dr. H. Allen Orr, an evolutionary geneticist and professor at the University of Rochester. Dr. Orr said that cell structures might have been put together in all sorts of unpredictable ways over the course of evolution and that a protein added might not have been indispensable at first, but only later, when many more proteins were woven around it.

    "The fact that that system is irreducibly complex doesn't mean you can't get there by Darwinian evolution," Dr. Orr said.

    Exactly how a designer might have assembled cell structures, say, is a question seldom addressed by design theorists. But they point out that Darwinists cannot necessarily offer detailed, step-by-step sequences of events for them either.

    Dr. Behe, Dr. Dembski and Phillip E. Johnson, a professor emeritus of the law school at the University of California at Berkeley, are regarded as the intellectual fathers of the design theory movement. Mr. Johnson's book "Darwin on Trial" (InterVarsity Press, 1991) has become its manifesto. The book focuses on what Mr. Johnson says are the difficulties Darwinian theory has in explaining the fossil record.

    Until last fall, Dr. Dembski was the director of a center at Baylor that was dedicated to the study of intelligent design theory. After complaints from other Baylor faculty members, the center's focus and leadership were changed, and it now includes design theory as well as other philosophical, theological and scientific topics.

    Dr. Dembski and Dr. Behe are fellows of the Discovery Institute, the Seattle research institute that promotes intelligent design in its Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture.

    The center's $1.1 million annual budget is supplied largely by Christian foundations that broadly endorse the implications of the intelligent design theory, said Bruce Chapman, Discovery's president. Mr. Johnson is an adviser to the institute, he said.

    The center, which reaches people through books, articles, lectures and local activism, "is going to be of interest to academics," Mr. Chapman said. "But it's also going to be of interest to people in a more grass- roots situation because they're teaching science or because they're on a school board somewhere."





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  2. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    If we can't agree on evolution or creationism, then why teach either of them?

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  3. Dr of Dunk

    Dr of Dunk Clutch Crew

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    We can teach theories because that's what they are... possible explanations susceptible to being proven false.

    Creationism doesn't allow for possiblity of failure. It's not considered theory, but factual by its followers. Also, and possibly more importantly, creationism relies upon the "student" to belive in a God or supreme being(s). It relies on the initial premise that a deity exists which itself has yet to be proven.

    ...well, that's what I think, anyway. [​IMG]

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  4. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    This intelligent-design theory is nothing new. I remember it from a philosophy class in college. Essentially, the philosopher, I can't remember who, reasoned that if you happened upon a watch in the middle of the desert, you wouldn't assume that chance brought all of it's moving parts together to create a working system. You would assume there was some intelligence put into it that designed it. This is the basis of intelligent-design. I tend to fall in line with this philosophy as a Christian.

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  5. Achebe

    Achebe Member

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    Space Ghost, there shouldn't be a precept in education that the masses have to agree with the curriculum.

    Timing, I'm amazed at how long that article is and that it actually doesn't describe Intellectual Design's best arguments. [​IMG]

    But then again, it keeps referring to Darwinian Evolution. The evolutionary biologists that I hang out with are a bit further along than Darwin's Treatise.

    BTW, is it just me or is this just a gradualistic shift to embracing evolution? I know conservatives eventually embrace the new scientific findings, but it is almost comical as to how it is played out here:

    That's fine. Their GOD used evolutionary biology to get us to the current point. An intelligent designer could handle such a simple task, eh?

    My sources tell me though, that we're not the end product. GOD actually loves the butterflys and made them in his image.

    Or, S/he could have used evolutionary biology. Almost there!

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  6. haven

    haven Member

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    MADMAX: that philosophy is known as "Deism." Modern creative design is actually a departure from this. Deism indicated that God had created the world and its natural laws, and then set his creation lose.

    Conversely, "creative design" argues that God has an active and continuing role in evolution.

    Creative design *is* interesting... but there's not much *scientific* support for it. I took a course, 'God and Science," that went into the issue in depth. It's basically unprovable, since if creative design is actually occurring, then God is doing so in a way that APPEARS to be a natural system.

    You're still left with a fundamental jump of faith due to the ontological gap between man and God. Creationism is simply not credible; Creative Design *is* credible, but ultimately unknowable.

    I think it's better to stick with theory that can be deductively substantiated. I'm not actually opposed to creative design... it's just not science, but rather philosophy.

    BTW, Darwinism and creative design are NOT the only two schools of evolutionary thought. Read some of Stephen J. Gould's stuff. It's accessible and interesting.

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  7. rimbaud

    rimbaud Member
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    A few points:

    1. I agree with Achebe, I do not see this as a threat to evolutionary biology...I see it as Creationists embracing concepts of evolution. They are, after all, saying that evolution has occurred. In fact, Creationism is further weakened by the Int. Design people saying it might not have been started by god, but by meteorites and ET.

    2. If you take the faith out of it...why are meteorites and ET more realistic than what biologists have so far put out?

    3. If God has been guiding us, then doesn't that discount much of the Bible? Were we not created as "perfection" and "in his own image." If there has been any adaptation due to environment, wouldn't that suggest incompetence on God's part?

    4. Same goes for animals, why spend the time creating animals that will not survive in certain situations, so that they must adapt, mutate, etc.?

    5. I found this to be interesting:
    "It has an appeal to intellectuals who don't know anything about evolutionary biology, first of all because the proponents have Ph.D.'s and second of all because it's not written in the sort of populist, folksy, anti-intellectual style. It's written in the argot of academia."

    I can see how this could appeal to non-scientific academia (some strains, at least). Areas of the humanites generally know very little of science and current advanced study is immersed in theory. Thus, in dealing with the non-concrete and increasingly far-fetched theories of post-modernist/post-structuralist theory, ET and comets could fit in fine. Anything to "break new ground" and get a book published...if only you could hear some of the theories I have heard!



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  8. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    What is your definition of perfection? Every man living forever? We use the term, "in the perfect world", but we do live in the perfect world. The only thing inperfect is Man. It was perfect in GOD's image, not yours. Every creature can't live forever.

    As for "in his own image", i must say that is a powerful thought. Man controls the world and there is no creature that stands higher than us. We are a few years away from cloning humans. We can almost transplant anything in any living organism. How much further do you have to go before you are God? I would say we are pretty close compared to the rest of the animal kingdom.


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  9. haven

    haven Member

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    To open up a whole religious can of worms... why would a perfect God have created an imperfect man?

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    Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
     
  10. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    I guess I draw a finer distinction between deism and intelligent design...and where I come out!! But I appreciate your comments. I see what you're saying.

    As for your last question, the Bible resolves that issue through the concept of free will. It's much more difficult to work through philosophically and theologically than just to say, "free will"...but that's the basis of it anyway. That's how my faith deals with it...not sure about others.

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  11. rimbaud

    rimbaud Member
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    Ghost,

    I was referring to the fact that bi-pedal hominids have undergone a metamorphoses of shape/structure, resulting in the current homo-sapiens sapiens presence.

    The "in his image" remark was along the same lines...we are no longer as humans were 30,000 years ago, nor even like homo-sapiens of our not-too-distant (relatively speaking) past.

    Additionally, speaking of human body development, why do men have nipples? If God created man first, and then woman from man...why this unusual and unneccesary addition for men? Science tells us that it is because everyone is female first in the womb, then loses the extra chromosome.

    Why did God then reverse the order in child bearing?

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  12. Jim1965

    Jim1965 Member

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    I have learned that arguing any topic in which FAITH is a variable is interesting, but ultimately impossible.

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  13. haven

    haven Member

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    Free will is a complicated issue in itself, with Christian doctrine.

    For example:

    How does one resolve free will and fate?

    Does free will really explain why man is imperfect? Isn't a person free if they're fully capable of acting immorally... but just universally chose not to do so? How does being imperfect allow for free will?

    Lucifer's fall implies that angels have free will. Yet the angels possess a higher degree of perfection than humans. Why were humans not made like angels?

    Some theologians have attempted to explain free will as existing at the quantum level, which is inherently unpredictable, even to God. I'm not sure they have a really good link between the will and quantum physics, but it's interesting.

    Random musings...



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  14. Dr of Dunk

    Dr of Dunk Clutch Crew

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    Amen.

    Err... right on.

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  15. Timing

    Timing Member

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    This designer may be much like the biblical God, proponents say, but they are open to other explanations, such as the proposition that life was seeded by a meteorite from elsewhere in the cosmos, possibly involving extraterrestrial intelligence, or the new age philosophy that the universe is suffused with a mysterious but inanimate life force.


    I found this section very interesting. They're actually willing to acknowledge that life on Earth may have been formed by ET's or even by a universal life force. Also, why would creationists choose to say that life may have seeded from a meteroite from another part of the universe? This to me is like passing the buck. We can't figure it out so maybe it was some alien race or some weird meteriote. Alrighty then...



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  16. tacoma park legend

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    I have to deal with ignorant Creationists at my school on a daily basis. They are uninformed of the subject, and retort back at me "God put us here, and that's that!"

    I just have alot of problems with Christianity, and their interpretation of God and Creation. I am Christian by the way, but I'm not going to be naive about certain aspects of my religion. They think I'm some atheist because I question my own religion.

    To start, I think Christians are wrong in their assumption that humans were made in the image of God. I just don't agree with the image commonly accepted of God. I think of "it", since I don't want to assign a gender to god since I don't think we should think of God as someone with reproductive organs, as an omniscient and omnipotent force. This is why I am not ok with the assumption that God should be looked at as if he was in human form.

    The people I argue with try to come back with "well you say we evolved from some primate, then why don't we see them trying to evolve into humans nowadays?" I really didn't have any strong argument for this.Does anybody have anything that could help me? I thought perhaps that once a species becomes attached to their niche, the need for evolution becomes unneccesary.

    Anybody have any good sites that would provide me with more info on the subject?

    Science is objective, religion is subjective.......

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    [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited April 09, 2001).]
     

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