This is a big reason why I cannot, in good conscience, identify with organized religion in general. It is one more way to segregate ourselves from others. I mean, every religion deep down believes that they are right and the other 100's of religions are hellbound - I know this is a generalization but one that is not too unfounded. How ridiculous is it to war over beliefs that are unprovable? I listened to my mother -jewish- and my father-in-law -baptist- debate about things that took place 1000's of years ago that were written in a book that has been translated and rewritten numerous times. I think if everyone would observe other people's beliefs with an open mind much of what ails this world would no longer exist. I think our differences are humorous if anything, not an excuse for violence. Now back to the topic: It seems from my perspective that the destruction of these statues was an act of intolerance. It was not like they were going to build condominiums or a strip mall. Sure, the expansion of the human race will invade burial grounds and other sacred sites but that is inevitable. What can be preserved and revered, generally is. To destroy history with malice dooms one to repeat it. Now back off topic- By the way, the suffering of the Iraqi people can only be blamed on its leader(s). The U.N. was created specifically to prevent the type of action Iraq inflicted on Kuwait. It seems that Saddam has no qualms using the suffering of his people to further his cause. As far as Isreal is concerned, I will not touch that one. This is a prime example of what I opened with. It is the birthplace of so many religions. Why can't they freakin' share it? I don't understand. ------------------
Sorry 03 about the US thing... I had read your response, I just forgot to put a qualifier in there (like 'most' of the US Muslims 'that I know', etc.). BTW, don't we intervene, b/c we intervened after WWII? I don't think it has much of anything to do w/ "Jewish lobbying", etc. ------------------ "We've never been very comfortable with praising ourselves, but we're so proud of our new album, The Great Eastern, that we've got no problem telling people it's an absolutely fantastic record." EMMA POLLOCK of the delgados.
Places Palestinian Muslims could go: Iraq Iran Syria Egypt Jordan Oman Qatar Kuwait United Arab Emirates Afganistan Saudi Arabia Burnai Yemen ------------------ "We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com [This message has been edited by Hydra (edited March 13, 2001).]
Come Mr. Taliban Blow up me statues Daylight come and the statues must go! 8 foot, 7 foot, LAUNCH! Daylight come and the statues must go!
Places Hydra could go: Botswana Washington DC Siberia Canada East LA Sounds like fun, huh? How would you like it if you were forced to leave your home? How would like it if that home had been in your family for generations? You make it sound so easy as if it is some simple choice of just packing up and leaving. If Louisiana demanded we all move out of Texas, I can guarantee there would be a serious problem. Neighbors are SUPPOSED to act neighborly. That doesn't mean that Arabs are better than Jews or that they don't have accountability here. It does mean that they have to work together. Forcing them out won't ultimately solve the problem. It will just create more problems. If Jews want to move, they could always come to America. That's where most of their money is coming from anyway. ------------------ "Don't waste it. We're here."
But isn't that exactly what the Palestinians are doing? Aren't they demanding that the Israelis give up part of their country. What about the Israeli Jews that are living in the contested areas. Is it okay to tell them to get out. My point is that there are many Muslim ruled countries in the world but only one Jewish one to my knowledge. Also, I do not see the meaning of your post. Yes, if I were in a country that I felt had a government that oppressed me, as the Palestinans seem to, I would probably head for greener pastures. ------------------ "We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com [This message has been edited by Hydra (edited March 13, 2001).]
Thankyou Jeff, I was about to post that myself. How about Isreal's blatant disregard of UN Resolution 242? How about Isreal's infiltration of illegal armed settlements? If it's as easy as those "stubborn arabs just learning to share the land" then why won't Isreal grant the right of return to refugee Palestinians? Why are Palestinians not allowed to use the same roads? Why are there barracades outside the Al-Aqsa mosque on Friday's, keeping out Palestinian men less than 45 years old? The fact of the matter is, the Arab Christian and Muslims have been living on that land for hundreds of years. The state of Isreal was just recently created and Zionists from all over the world have gone there. If your family owned a peace of property for centuries, and that land was taken away and put under military occupation, how would you feel? You sure as hell wouldn't be saying, "well, we can always head on down to Louisiana and start all over." [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited March 13, 2001).]
The problem here is that they cannot tell either one to leave. You can't tell your neighbor to leave. They both are guilty of problems, but neither can ask the other to move. ------------------ "Don't waste it. We're here."
cab, obviously both sides of this conflict are imperfect. The problem is that I do not see this being resolved. If the surrounding nations were friendly toward the Jewish population and antagonistic toward the Muslims, then I would suggest that the Israelis move the short distance to the rich neighboring countries. Since the opposite is true I advocated the Palestinians moving. I am not judging either side as being right or wrong. I just think that my solution is the only real chance for peace in a country that is being torn apart by war. ------------------ "We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com
I fail to see why the Palestinians should be told to leave their homes. Over 75% of the Jews currently living in Israel and the occupied terrorities weren't even born in Israel (CIA World Factbook 2000). If these guys aren't even from the region, what right do they have to force out the Palestinians - a people who have been living there for thousands of years. ------------------
No problemo Achebe. America has lots of interests in Israel due to the strong Jewish lobbying in Washington. I cant remember any specific names (McDonalds, Coke, etc. could have been some of them), but large corporations owned by Jewish spend lots of money to make sure that Jews in Israel have their way. America always has tried to portray itself as the savior of the world. But behind the scenes they really dont care much about anything accept money. Now America is not the only imperfect one. Israel and all the Muslim nations arent better off either. In this world everyone does something for their own selfish reasons. If the Muslims nations were smart enough to combine their resources, they could destroy Israel in a freakin second. But they all are too stupid to fight amongst each other with their own petty problems. ------------------
I hope you're not advocating that 03. ------------------ "We've never been very comfortable with praising ourselves, but we're so proud of our new album, The Great Eastern, that we've got no problem telling people it's an absolutely fantastic record." EMMA POLLOCK of the delgados.
LOL! I have nothing against Jews. Life is too short to spend my time hatin'. I just meant that all the Muslims should combine their resources and help out each other. Jews do that in Israel and all over the world, and the Muslims could learn something from them. Why the hell can people just not get along? Why cant Muslims and Jews live in Israel? The world is full of some sh!theads that dont want to see somthing like this happen. ------------------
KidRocket, The problem with that argument is that the Jews were in that region before there even was an Islamic religion. Over the course of time they were forced out, does that mean that the Muslim people have a more legitimate claim than the recently returned Jews. Also how could the Muslim people have been living there for thousands of years when Muslims did not exist 2000 years ago. Neither side is right, but I think the only real chance for peace in Israel is if one side moves out. Now the question is, should it be the Muslim and Christian Arabs who can find nations controlled by like minded people all over the world, or the Jewish people who already have a government in place and are in fact the only jewish nation in the world? ------------------ "We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com
Hydra, There is no problem w/ my argument. It appears to me that your understanding of the situation is that somehow Muslims were deposited in the region 1400 years ago. They were not; the ancestors of most of the current Palestinians reverted* to Islam. In other words, genetically the current Palestinians trace their ancestry back to a people known as the Canaanites, who predated Moses' arrival by a cool 1000 years(Microsoft Encarta). So yes, I do believe that the Palestinians' claim is more legitimate. * - Muslims believe that people are born innocent and free of sin, and that our upbringing converts us to the belief/religious system of the corresponding society/family. So when a person chooses Islam, he/she is 'reverting' back to that original state, hence my word choice. ------------------
Why the hell should the Muslims move out? If Israel had no American support they wouldnt be worth jack. The Arab nations need to get together and just tell US that theyll be damned before they supply US with any more oil. That will change the American stand on Israel. ------------------
I was only looking at it from a human interest standpoint. If there were two roommates living in a house and they did not get along so one of them had to move out, who should move? Should it be the one whose rich cousin is living in a mansion down the block? Or should it be the one who has no family in the area and will be forced out onto the street? Well I do not see any Jewish controlled nations ANYWHERE except for Israel. How many Muslim supported nations can be found BORDERING Israel? To try to stake a claim based on whether you arrived 4000 or 5000 years ago should be secondary. Especially since most of the borders there did not exist 4000 years ago. Who is to say that a particular Palestinians ancestors came from Israel and not from Jordan or Egypt or Saudi Arabia? ------------------ "We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com
Did anybody here watch that old movie "Exodus"? I'm going to have to appeal to the media to improve my knowledge of this matter. I have a book on Jerusalem around here somewhere, but who has time to read? ------------------ (===)
Our discussion would be better served if you avoided such circular arguments. Even so, I'm not going to get into an anthropological dissertation to convince you that the Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites b/c that would obviously be futile - the facts remain unchecked. Moreoever, your analogy of the two roommates is not applicable to this situation. The Palestinians have no reason to leave their homeland. It's theirs. If they wish to leave, they'll do so at their own discretion, they shouldn't be forced out to accommodate people who don't even live there notwithstanding who supports the neighboring nations. ------------------
I read a novel by Phillip Roth, Operation Shylock, in which a man who takes on Roth's persona starts promoting a kind of reverse exodus of Jews. The logic was that the Jews in Israel are more European than Middle Eastern...that this fish out of water situation is leading to the conflict and is hurting the Jewish culture in general. Interesting read. Of course the real Phillip Roth argues against the fake that the Germans and other Euros probably wouldn't treat the Jews that well upon their return. This is a rediculously (and uneccessarily) complex issue that this BBS will not even solve superficially. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
