Simple solution: end military aid to Israel. That should get the job done. Israel is broke for all intents and purposes without US aid. Talk about gratitude http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4092646.stm Israel-US relations 'in crisis' Israeli arms sales to China have provoked a "crisis" in relations with the US, according a senior Israeli parliamentary official. Yuval Steinitz, chairman of the parliamentary foreign affairs and defence committee, made the remarks in an interview on Israel radio. The sales have angered the US government which fears its own technology may could be used against Taiwan. The US provides $2bn (£1.1bn) of military aid to Israel every year. Washington has refused to negotiate with Israel on the issue of the Chinese arms deal for months. The US has also imposed sanctions on the Israeli defence industry, according to media reports. It has suspended several joint weapons and technology projects with Israel, the reports say. 'Independence' Israel has supplied China with Harpy Killer unmanned attack drones, designed to target radar systems. "There is a crisis that has been going on for almost a year," Mr Steinitz told Israel Radio. "There is no doubt that relationship with the United States is critical to Israel. But, with all the enormous importance of US diplomatic, economic and military help, Israel must keep its independence and also some reciprocity in this relationship," he added. "This is an illegitimate demand which also has an aspect of humiliation to it," he said. "We cannot agree to everything."
I personally would love to shut off the funds going to the money pit that is Israel. The Israelis are an arrogant bunch that we do not need to be supporting anymore.
thats a funny comment... i don't think you understand how powerful the Isreali lobby group is....so it don't matter if you like what they are doing or not. they already have the fourth largest nuke pile...they are not someone to fu*k with.
On the contrary, I know very well the level of influence they have on our government and the large wallets of the U.S. Jewish community. If we weren't siding with the Israelis, maybe it would lessen the hate of the Arabs towards the U.S. So the Israelis have nukes. So what? Would they use them against us? If they did, we could obliterate that small, stupid piece of Middle Eastern real estate once and for all. Then nobody would have to worry about fighting over it anymore. Also, big difference between what I want and what is going to happen.
I think all of you are missing something very important from an Israeli perspective. What technology Israel sells to China pales in comparison to what the US sells (or outright gives for free) to Egypt and Saudi Arabia...like F-16s and Abrams tanks. So it cuts both ways, and from an Israeli perspective, these drones and the radar they tried to sell before to China (phalcon, I think?) are small potatoes in the big picture. I'm glad none of you guys work in diplomacy Besides, the US can't really "cut off" aid to Israel...it's part of the Camp David Accords that bought the very cold "peace" with Egypt. It's also what keeps Mubarak rolling in M1A2's. If you don't like it, take it up with Jimmy Carter. Appeasement..sure. That's a proven tool of diplomacy.
I was raised in Texas and have nothing but German genes flowing through me. I definitely shouldn't work in any diplomatic field. My solution for peace in the Middle East, blow em all up and let God sort em out.
If they want US aid and technology, they better not sell arms to China. This isn't an equal partnership.
I think its you that's missing the point. There is an agreement between Israel and the United States that no U.S technology is too be sold to other countries. The second reason why it’s a delicate issue, is because China is a threat to U.S’s uni-polar power. Also my point that "they are not someone to fu*k with" meant that you can't fu*k with em!!; not that militarily you can't crush them. When you have soo many politicians in your pocket you control the head of the beast.
Israel's been selling arms to China for decades. And to a host of other countries, such as South Africa, that the US reportedly did not want arms sold to. So this article seems like a big waste of time unless you're for some reason fascinated by smoke and mirrors. Bush isn't going to cut aid. Bush isn't going to hold sanctions. Bush isn't going to do jackshht, in fact. Since we are on a Rockets site, I guess the best analogy I can come up with right now: If Van Chancellor goes and sells details of Van Gundy's game strategy chalkboard to the Mavs during the playoffs, what exactly is Van Gundy's recourse? About all he can do is put in a complaint to Alexander.
Well, if I am not mistaken Bush HAS done something about it, namely sanction Israeli defense sector and freezing all current projects the US and Israel were working on. My whole point was how one-sided the whole relationship is. At least we get oil from the Saudis (as well as about a trillion dollars in crucial investments in our markets, and the Saudis, along with the Chinese/Japanese, are financing our ballooning deficits).
Quote from the article: "The US has also imposed sanctions on the Israeli defence industry, according to media reports. It has suspended several joint weapons and technology projects with Israel, the reports say." How conveniently vague. It comes across as such shoddy simpleton journalism that it's almost like Bush scribbled it himself on one of the pages in his pet goat book, tore it out, and then submitted it for press circulation. Anyways, I understand your point of one-sidedness. But I'm contending that Israel is not really doing anything that is against US interests. At the end of the day, Bush is at the mercy of industry and central bankers, with a little bit of mafiya mixed in. All 3 have made huge investments in China. Hell, Taiwan itself has tens of billions worth of investments in China. So it's ridiculous to be afraid that China will be using our own weapons against us or Taiwan, as the article states. This is the same country that has Most Favored Nation trading status with us. This is the same country that, as you noted, is financing our own deficits. Our own iguana-looking Sec. of State goes into Beijing and complains about human rights abuse over there, the unfloatable yuan, and what not. And meanwhile, trade and investment b/t China and American public and private interests only accelerates. But Ms. Lice has to say something for the press nonetheless because John Q. American's manufacturing job just got outsourced to China and he's pissed as can be at those Chinese. It's the same lipservice for the press with this article. Bush can't let the world think he has more in common with Ariel than with even Jeb.
We also get their suicide bombers and their terrorist funding. Israel has been America's proxy army for most of the cold war, doing our dirty work, frankly. There's quite a large flow of information, technology, and intelligence that comes from here. Most of the intelligence in the War on Terror that was worth a **** came from Sayeret Matkal, Mossad and Shin Bet. There also isn't a country in the UN that has voted more times with the US than Israel has. For the most part the US is alone in its standing in the world. It's probably the one place in the world where people still genuinely like Americans. Rest secure knowing most of the Islamo-fascist world is with you on that one. I hear Hamas is looking for a few expendable men with your sort of dedicated world view. Is this a reference to AIPAC? It's the second largest lobby group in the US, but it's one eighth the size of the NRA. It also does NOT give money to any political candidates as a matter of policy. Please elaborate as to which politicians are in whose pockets. Israel develops alot of its own advanced weapons technology. Some of it is co-developed with the US. But the US does not want Israel selling any of it to China, which many in Israel think is unfair. I agree that this is shortsighted. Nevermind upsetting Uncle Sam. China will turn around and sell to anyone (Iran, Pakistan, whoever has a checkbook). This is not much good to Israel's security interests. But at the same time, the US makes a killing selling to despotic Arab clients with no regard to Israeli concerns. Its one thing to give military aid to Egypt and Saudi Arabia. It's yet another to give them technology like main battle tanks that aren't shared with anyone else. I don't know what the BBC will say about this a week from now. But I can pretty much guarantee that this is the discussion taking place now. And...like pippendagimp says, not much is likely to change Israel's biggest clients are India and Singapore, not China. Israel has always had decent relations with China, but the efforts to sell military hardware there is relatively new. And your Rockets analogy is flawed. Israel isn't a part of the United States. It's a sovereign country, like France or Japan. It agrees with the US on more than any other ally does (unless you include the Marianas and Guam), and votes more often along US lines (which makes it even more of a paraiah to the rest of the world) but even allies disagree on some things. Some things that are in one country's interest simply aren't in another's. Well put. I think that's the beef the Israelis have, especially in light of the way the US treats other allies by a different set of standards: France, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan for starters. What sort of sanctions have the US put on France for exporting nuclear technology to the Third World? France, BTW, enabled Israel to develop nukes in the first place.
Yes, I am joking. Sometimes though, when it is late at night, you just think briefly about swerving your car over across the double yellow line into oncoming traffic. On the flip side, if the terrorists had the U.S. nuclear arsenal; do you think that they would hesitate to blow us all up, innocents included? My completely irrational suggestion was to raise the issue of how irrational the Middle East is. One could only hope that there is some sort of peace there in our lifetime. In my 35 years on this earth, there hasn't been peace in the Middle East. Much like O.J. Simpson, Terry Schiavo, Michael Jackson; I just don't want to here about it anymore. Make it go away!
"Israel is China's second-largest arms supplier (the first being Russia). Although diplomatic relations between Israel and China were established only in 1992, military ties go back to the early 1980s. Until formal diplomatic ties were established, the military relationship was covert. Israel sold about US$4 billion worth of arms to China during the covert courtship. In the 1990s, the Sino-Israel military relationship grew rapidly. In fact, arms sales contributed to the strengthening of diplomatic engagement." http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FL21Ak01.html It is my understanding that Israel had assisted China with much of their initial nuclear program, as well. I never said the Comets were a part of the Rockets. I said they were both controlled by the same guy (Alexander). Much like both the US and Israel are controlled by the same group of central bankers, multi-national corporations, mafiya, etc. These groups don't necessarily care about what is good for the US or Israel or the citizens living in them. They care about making a buck.
Nah, I'm not denying that Russia was the prime contributor to China's initial nuclear program. But after the Sino-Soviet split in 1960, when all cooperative agreements and assistance was broken off, China's nuke program was only partially-constructed and they were still lacking in knowledge. This is where Israel came in, by sending several ex-Manhattan Project scientists (who were now Israeli citizens) to China.
That's the only way the Royals can stay in power, it is, btw, something the US has ALWAYS known about and turned a blind-eye to, because they had to tolerate it as a necessary evil. You mean like bombing the USS Liberty? Sure htey have done some dirty work for us in the region, but not more than what the notorious Egyptian Mukhabarat, or even the Jordanians and the Saudis, have done. If you are unaware of this fact, then you are simply unaware of how much cooperation in intelligence between the US and Egypt. The Mukhabarat there is pretty much at the disposal of the USA, and has been since Mubarak took over. You mean the flawed Intel that made sure the USA got involved with Iraq? Sure, I can't deny that, the Mossad have always had a niche for forging documents and Intel to serve their own interests. I wonder where the "yellowcake" Niger claim came from? Hmmm... Anyways, in any case, the Israelis are a smart, shrewd bunch. Our Middle East policy IS tailored in Tel Aviv. Guess who were (and still are) in charge of the Pentagon's Iraq and Iran files that make policy recommendations to the Bush administration? That's right, the NeoCons, who are now, coincidentally, caught up in an FBI investigation regarding the passing of classified info to AIPAC, who in turn pass on that information to their employer, the Israeli government. Basically, hardcore Zionists are the ones in charge of drafting our Middle East policy, I wonder who it will be tailored to benefit the most?! Do the names Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Larry Franklin, William Kristol, and Feith ring a bell? The Israelis might have done some dirty work for the US in the past, but make no mistake about it: RIGHT now WE are doing their dirty work. Iraq? Check! Getting the Syrians out of Lebanon? Check! Iran? Working on it! It is no coincidence that the three ME countries we are currently engaged with the most are the three than annoyed the Israelis the most. How can the ISraelis not like us? They owe their existence to the United States. Of course they like the Americans, we have just taken residence in Iraq (a weak Iraq that was no longer able to maintain the necessary balance of power with Iran, because Saddam was getting too weak and pathetic) so that we can check the Syrians and the Iranians for them ourselves, since they failed to do it on their own. The ME is an area I specialize in, so yes, I am very much aware of the nature and history of Israeli-American relations. Yes, they do develop some of their own advanced weaponry systems, thanks mainly to the expertise they have gained by working with US military industry. Most of their weapons are basically an Israeli reproduction of US military hardware, using US weapon technology. No one else in the region, not the Egyptians nor the Saudis nor the Jordanians, have had the opportunity to work so closely with the US on weapon development, so they don't have the technical know-how to steal our technology. Moreover, if an M1A1 tank breaks down in Egypt, Egyptian technicians aren't allowed to do a damn thing about it, they are contractually obligated to order in US technicians to come in and do the fixing themselves. Why? All this is done as to preserve US military tech secrets and not enable the Egyptians or anyone else, besides the ISraelis that is, to get their hands on US military technology. Why else do you think the US had a fit when the Chinese forced an American spy plane to land in China? This was why. Military aid to the Saudis? Again, let me reitrate, THEY are the ones financing US debts, not the other way around. The Saudis are the biggest military spenders in the ME, about $18 billion a year in defense spending, which dwarfs anything the Israelis spend on their defense industry. And again, even if the Egyptians and the Saudis were getting main battle tanks that aren't shared with anyone else, it doesn't matter, because just like if I purchase a BMW 760Li and drove it around, it doesn't mean that I am now in position of BMW trade secrets. The Saudis and the Egyptians can't do anything with any piece of military hardware obtained from the US, they can't even maintain them, they have to hire certified military contractors to do the maintenance work for them. So no, they have no way of obtaining US military tech secrets, they aren't allowed to. The Israelis, on the other hand, have full access to it for the most part. I can assure you that the French did so with the full knowledge and approval of the US. ISrael had to have nukes, and the Arabs had to be prevented from having them, plain and simple. That was a cheap, simple way of ensuring the safety and survival of Israel in the long run. BTW, don't be surprised if the Saudis have nukes in the near future, they have just been basically giving a pass by the IAEA, they won't allow any inspections in their country. With their purchasing power, they will have nukes by next year probably. The Saudis are very concerned about the Iranians getting nukes and being a hegemon in the Persian Gulf. With Iraq now long gone as a credible check against the Iranians, the Saudis are ready to assume that role. Their source will likely be Pakistan, or even more likely China, who are in desperate need of securing their future oil supplies.
