Hakeem "Arguably" a top echelon center of all time?

Hakeem is a definite top 4 center. Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Dream. Shuffle it any way would you like it. Just keep one thing in mind, has anyone and I mean anyone dominated a current "MVP" award winner that same year as Hakeem did to David Robinson in 1995. I've seen players dominate other players but not All-Stars/MVP's. It was stated by one newspaper (I forgot which one) that the Admiral got raped by the Dream. Another reporter said Hakeem ate David Robinson for lunch. The moves he put was like a Highlight reel. Remember, he's a center, not guard or a forward. What center has his quickness, #1 in steals for Center position, I think 10th All-time, #1 in blocks in All-time. Also, what kind of supporting cast has he had in his career. Never had a point guard, small forward, and only had average to above average PF in Otis Thorpe. That's it! No player played with "the Dream" that was in their prime years during Hakeem's era. Clyde Drexler was past his prime when he came along. He had 2 quadruple double games. The first one was not recorded because the statician forgot to add an assist to his name, which they couldn't go back and change it. Finally he got it again, the 2nd time around. Unbeleivable! I love Moses, he was my favorite player before Hakeem came along, but him and Shaq are not in the same level as him. They all might live in the same house, but you would need to go at least one flight of stairs to get to his level.

 

I take exception to this list because you have the (IMO) best player ever to lace up a pair of sneakers second to last.

 

Ah, this is always fun. I saw Wilt and Russell only play in their latter years and it's just true you can't compare players from different eras.

Mikan, Russell, Wilt and Kareem's games were completely unprecedented. So was Dream's. Shaq's body was unprecedented, but his game is primarily about his size, but as long as he keeps paying homage to Hakeem he's alright by me.

If the top ten centers were able to play against each other in their primes, I think Dream would have had the most trouble with Jabbar - but he'd give everybody else a few serious problems. Dream's offensive moves were as good as anyone that ever played at any position - I just don't think you can say that about anyone else who played center. The sky-hook always is thought of as the ultimate bb shot, but Dream's repertoire became just ridiculous. His legacy is that he was raw early and that skews his stats against the greats, but...

Defensively, most people don't get it. I don't care about so much about his blocks or steals total because I remember the havok he created. The altered shots, the bad passes he caused - and the way teams just decided to stay away from him.

So who compares to him? I think it just has to be someone that could manage to get 40 ppg against him and play major D against him to somewhat cancel each other out. I don't really see the guy that could do that at his peak.

The whole Shaq thing. Well the contention that no one could guard him 1 on 1, hardly makes him unique, and I'm not so sure that's the case. If Dream hadn't been responsible for about 30% of the offense in '95 that could have been interesting. If they were both rookies: severe edge to Dream.

For the national media Dream apparently didn't wow them for enough years - because they didn't pay much attention. But I do remember Wilt and Russell trashing all-star NBA centers during their retirement. Russell was usually brutal and the only negative comment I ever heard him say about Dream (circa '90) was that he should be the best player in the NBA and he wasn't sure why he wasn't yet. Aw well, back then we all knew the issues.

 

Did shaq really just say this? or is this from 95?

 

mikan was the first great center but he could not have played in todays NBA.

russell wilt and kareem could all have played in todays NBA if they were young again. hakeem would eat mikan alive.

 

I don't count the years Hakeem averaged 6 rebs when he was old and run down man.

Hakeem has more seasons of 13+ rebounds then Shaq....but I'll give this up as a wash. It's not a decisive difference.

They are really close....I wonder what kind of points Shaq would have average if he wasn't such a poor foul shooter.

 

Darn imagine what points Wilt would average as he is a WORSE free throw shooter than Shaq !

 

The thing about Shaq, even though he is very dominate and one of all-time greats, is that he's always had a young stud or dream teamer to help him out. No way does he win 3 titles in a row w/out Kobe. It was always Kobe who was the go-to guy in the clutch. And in Orlando, he had a young Penny, who at the time was the one of the leagues' best players. Now he has Wade. The closest players Hakeem had were Barkley and Drexler, who were well past their primes. He did have a young Ralph Sampson,though. W/Samspson, they reached the finals in their second season, a remarkable achievement considering the Lakers dominated the west in the 80's, going to the finals 8 or 10 seasons.
Of the great centers, Hakeem arguably had the worst supporting cast throughout much of career, especially in his young days. Remember Buck Johnson, Sleepy Floyd, Purvis Short, Mike Woodson, Matt Maloney. Not exactly a great supporting cast. In fact, when they won in 94, Hakeem was the only all-star. I can't think of many championship teams w/only one all-star. He truly carried that team. During that 2-year stretch, he beat the other great centers in the Playoffs; Ewing,Robinson and Shaq.I think people should take into account that he didn't have much help when naming the all-time greatest.

 

Another factor in Hakeem's favor is that he was the go-to guy at the end of games. We knew that in the last few minutes the ball was going straight to Hakeem just about every time. Shaq was and is a liability because of his poor free throw shooting. He usually deferred to Kobe or Penny down the stretch.
Defensively ,Hakeem wreaked havoc, either blocking shots or stealing the ball. He would run down players to block a shot, whereas Shaqs blocks were cuz the players came to him. He didn't cover nearly as much ground as Hakeem did.
In addition, Hakeem had quick hands and had many steals, usually tops for centers.

 

Isn't he the all time leader for steals by a center?

 

true, but through their 13th seasons (this was shaq's 13th) i believe they are both right at 12.0, give or take a tenth.

and yes, hakeem is #1 for centers in steals. he's #7 all-time and i think the only center in the top 30.

and russell's right about where he should be on that list by No Worries. no offense, no #1.

 

found this article from sports illustrated:

page 1

 

page 2

 

15.1 PPG is hardly "no offense" for a career, especially a career that saw 22.5 RPG. Besides, Russell is number 1 with a bullet on one of the most prestigious lists there is: number of championships.

Russell made his teammates better, something that cannot be said for Wilt, he controlled games and even entire playoff series defensively, something that cannot be said for Shaq, and he was even a player/coach for his last trip to and through the Finals, a claim that no other player in NBA history can make.

But what it comes down to is 11 championships in 13 years. Before Russell, Boston and Auerbach didn't win squat and after him, it took the coming of Larry Bird and the passing of 12 seasons for the leprechaun to work his magic again. Russell is far and away the best player this league has ever seen. When the Celtics needed him to score, he scored, when they needed him to rebound, he rebounded, and he is the man who is the reason we now keep the blocked shots statistic.

Hands down and by far the best to ever hit the hardwood.

 

I remember that article. I also remember the national sports media fawning over Dream at the time. I guess its all forgotten now except by the Houston fans and people who really know the game.

 

Russell is top 5 exclusively for his rings.

Is Quittin a top 5 small forward exclusively for his rings?

Edit: Quitten was more of role player on his teams than Russell was. A better example would be Worthy.

 

No, but he doesn't have 11 of them, either. Nor was he the dominant force for any of them as evidenced by the loud sucking sound in Chicago during a particular 18 month period.

 

Skill-wise, I think Hakeem ranks at the top. None of those other centers had the complete combination of athleticism, quickness, speed, defensive timing, shooting, and clutch play that Hakeem did.

The problem with evaluating Hakeem is that he played in an era when there were several other very respectable centers (Robinson, Ewing, Kareem, plus the many in the Smits/James Donaldson/Brad Daugherty tier). Furthermore, there were several INCREDIBLE players at other positions at the time (Jordan, Magic, Bird). The result is that Dream only had a couple of seasons where he truly dominated the league, making him look relatively less spectactular.

In contrast, all of these other centers have spent their time running over scrubs. The only serious competition Shaq has had in the last several years is Duncan, and he's not even a center. Wilt and Kareem won because they were tall (honestly, how much better was Kareem than a healthy Ralph Sampson?). Russell was an upgraded version of Ben Wallace.

In short, Dream was the best. But if your criteria was how DOMINATING he was, well Dream is a tougher sell, because it's hard to say you're #1 when you're standing next to Jordan.

 

Don't undersell the late 60's to late 1970's, there were plenty of quality centers in the 70's, far more than there are now: Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Dave Cowens, Bob Lanier, Artis Gilmore, Bob McAdoo, Bill Walton, Willis Reed, Moses Malone, Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes, Moses Malone, and others all manned the middle during that time period.

It's lunacy to say Kareem didn't have real guys to go against. The period he played in was known as the era of the center in the NBA - and for good reason.

 

I never could understand how a player who never won anything like malone, barkley, and stockton get so much love? I would take Cousey over Stockton.