When were the Progressives wrong on a moral issue?

How about abortion?

Did anyone ask those little people how morally right the decision not to have the baby was?

By the way, in my opinion Hate Crimes legislation is stupid. A crime is a crime period. It may prop up a public posture but it will not further deter a criminal.

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Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
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I do not understand in the least what you mean by progressives were right on issues of racism, as if racism is solved. That is simply White ideology making us feel better.

As I said in response to Will in the other thread, there are Black conservative groups who want segragation. Are they Conservatives with a capital C. Or do we just ignore them as progressives do most all non mainstream factions of minority groups. We say, they are not Conservatives because of their fiscal policy. Oh, don't be so certain.

To me: Progressives (as if that is really even a voting group, more a hodge-podge of righteousness), are most harmful to racism, because they often feel good enough about past accomplishments to place their head in the sand when Byrd makes statements like he did.

Is segregation wrong when minority groups ask for it for Nationalist reasons and for reason of control over raising there kids in a more accurate historical perspective? Is prayer in schools wrong with Black Muslim groups demand it because they are required to prayer 5 (?) times a day? Are they Conservatives or Progressives?

Did the Progressives spearhead ANY racial movements that had true meaning to minororities in the 60's and 70's. Or, albeit the Civil Rights Act, were minorities actually set back in the 60s and 70s (compared to the Postbellum era and the 20s). Who were these Progressives, Lyndon Johnson? What was the racial platform? Was it embraced by the minority groups?

And the biggest question of all: Have Progressives fought for History taught in High School that better represents Black history. Oh, we have Black History Month; I feel better.

Can one High School student on the bbs tell me what W.E.B. DuBois did for a living? And what decade?

Lastly, Kagy is right! Progressives want to ignore Byrds statements, and would rather discuss more consumable issues like what jamcracker listed while using the same righteous indignation they claim the Conservatives are known for.

Ideologies are not wrong any more than individual beliefs are wrong any more than individual experiences are wrong. Progressives show no more racial tolerance than Conservatives. And why do I get this feeling we are only talking about White ideologies?

 

thanks jamcracker.

I have to say that the first complaint against liberals will be what Will alluded to yesterday... communism. Regardless of implementation vs. ideology, regardless of Stalin's 40,000,000 (I know I'll awaken JV w/ that ) communism is/was stiflingly wrong (though I would have liked to have been taken from my parents and turned into Kasparov).

Regardless of that blemish, just remember that a liberal pointed out that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe... and conservatives are still questioning issues in the same manner to this day.

It's not their fault, it's just the role of the naysayer. The naysayer slows things down so that the masses can absorb and accept new findings and the new way of life. Eventually once the mass has been acclimated to the new ethic, the conservative creeps closer to the middle and absorbs the fact in blob like fashion.

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I'd rather be boinking my wife.

 

Well, since most pro-choice people don't believe that the "little people" are in fact, little people, I'll go ahead and disagree with you here.

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www.swirve.com...The reason Al Gore invented the internet.

 

Is segregation wrong when minority groups ask for it for Nationalist reasons and for reason of control over raising there kids in a more accurate historical perspective? Is prayer in schools wrong with Black Muslim groups demand it because they are required to prayer 5 (?) times a day?

Segregation and Praying in School are wrong when the government forces it upon you. People can choose to pray in school, and they can choose to segregate all they want (by choosing what neighborhood to live in and who to hang out with). The government cannot and shouldn't force people to do either.

Progressives want to ignore Byrds statements,

No, people ignore Byrd's statements because they know better than to listen to a 90 yr old's view on racism. Racism is engrained in a person in their childhood. It's generally not something that is learned or unlearned -- study after study shows this to be true.

So when you're looking for evidence of racism, looking at what the Byrd's or Helm's or Thurmond's of the world think is really not important.

Look at racism in 10yr olds vs 20yr olds. Look at it in 20yr olds vs 40 yr olds, and 40yr olds and 80yrs. Look for the trends, and that will give you a much better clue about racism and it's rise or decline than the comments of a single 90yr old who grew up in a far more racist society.



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http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.

 

Self-congratulatory superiority complexes are never a pretty sight.

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right on Shanna. thx for the comeback. I agree with a lot of what you say.

Just want to add that Progressives made segregation illegal. Groups are not allowed to even choose segregation, like you imply. It is against the law. Progressives have a lot of groups who disagree with them on this issue, besides it does not progress our racial understandings one iota.

Why are Progressives congratulating themselves on this issue? Are they really Right?

Shanna: would you agree that when Progressives say they were right about racism or segregation, they are applying a very narrow view of our racial landscape.

[This message has been edited by heypartner (edited March 06, 2001).]

 

So the conservatives were right and we shouldn't pass blackie the ball, right?

There's still alot to do, sure. I believe though that you are making invisible lines in ideologies to suit some sort of cultural relativist's argument. Logic is logic, black or white. Words are words. Arguments involve premises and conclusions, not oblique forms of intangible experience.

Blacks that want segregation are conservatives, or at worst misled liberals trying to seek an end w/o appreciating the means. Hell, I don't even know what end could possibly be achieved w/ segregation. Could you delve?

I thought that Byrd was socially conservative. It's not as if Liberals have to justify social theory on the views of a racist hick in a labor state.

Segregation is wrong b/c our country's national commercial shows a black and white person drinking a Coke together and smiling. That's what we are, regardless of what we want. The country can be no other way. For the country to change, a new Constitution would have to be drafted, a new commercial made.

p.s. Muslims are always conservative, and prayer in school is a conservative issue regardless of the color of the proponent.

The Sierra Club had Greenpeace, MLK had Malcolm. Sure there were beligerrent voices in the movement, but times are a hell of alot better regarding "respect for persons" now than it was before Civil Rights.

Yeah, liberals are in the way.

Progressives proactively respond to the needs of their peers. Conservatives are nothing, if not in the fetching way of every moral issue that has come down the pipe.

heypartner, why don't you break out the black ideologies that you're concerned with. It'd be informative for those of us that weren't Black Panthers back in the day.

In the end, they'll all succeed or fail, black ideologies or white... based on logic.

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I'd rather be boinking my wife.

 

Like a single solitary rose sitting atop a vast ocean of bull****....

....we have words of truth from Grummett

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stop posting my damn signature

 

I wish I could have a fetus with my wife that would become a toaster. Then, instead of me supporting it for 20 years, it could support me with the millions I would get from the Enquirer for the "inside Scoup." That, and a toaster is much more uselful.


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Whitey will pay.

 

LOL

If the fetus became a filet mignon, would you put it up for adoption since you don't eat meat? Or would you love it just as much?

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Brought to you by the letter M.

 

Oh class!

Rocketman95: Whether or not you should wear a condom is a function of whether or not you want to be a parent. On second thought, please wear one because of the choice you would make should you accidentally conceive a child. You need to cool down....

Masturbate till your fingers freeze; I don't care. Semen and Sperm are not children. Even by your standard of living on their own, they are not human children.

Imagine just minutes after YOUR birth that you had been laid on a plush bed with rails and satin sheets and LEFT TO STARVE. Tell me again about your rock-solid definition of a human as one who could live on their own. You failed your own test!

Shanna: I spoofed his argument rather than proved it. Granted it is hard to draw the line between Truth and Belief, but generally you have to justify a belief whereas a Truth just is evident. You have to define backwards to make the argument that the fetus is not a human.

You busted me on sloppy language. I forget this is akin to published writing. The use of will become was to create an impossible contrast to the fetus-child becoming a toaster or a filet. It should be obvious from the rest of my argument that the fetus IS A CHILD from the moment of conception.

A sperm fertilizes the egg and a new entity emerges which requires nourishment from the mother's blood supply.

Please don't prey on poor word choice and the limitations of language. I will try to be more exacting but when you gotta go, you gotta go!

Achebe: What does an umbrella have to do with it? The criticism raining down....?

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Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
PowerbizOnline.com

 

RichRocket,

I didn't fail my own test. By living on their own, I mean living without the mother's organs. A 3-month fetus cannot live outside the mother's womb whether you feed it or not, a 6-month fetus may be able to, that's the difference. If I were to tie you up, you'd die too, but you wouldn't die because you needed my heart to live. You'd die because you weren't physically able to eat.

To me, my sperm analogy is a correct one. It has potential to become a life just like a 3-month fetus does. We just disagree on that point, that's what you and most other pro-lifers don't get. It's not a convenient definition to get away with murder, we just really believe that way. It would be nice if you would cool down and realize that.

As far as the "Oh Class!" statement, aren't you the same guy who thought it was cute when their daughter called Democrats "dummycraps" and called it great insight? That's really classy.

BTW, I'd never ask my significant other (or random pickup, I do have loads of game...yeah right) to have an abortion. I don't think it's right, now pay attention, for me. But if my significant other or random pickup felt different, I'd understand.

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www.swirve.com...The reason Al Gore invented the internet.

[This message has been edited by Rocketman95 (edited March 06, 2001).]

 

RichRocket, you need a big moral umbrella to shield the unborn as well as non human primates, etc.

Abortion is such a burly procedure that it tears at parts of my being. I would rise to the challenge of childbirth myself (even though I don't want a kid now), but I also realize that there's a reason why the procedure exists.

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I'd rather be boinking my wife.

 

Rocketman95: By that logic, every carbon atom has the "potential" to be a human fetus.

Sperm is sperm; egg is egg; an egg fertilized by sperm is a human creature. You only argue that point to gain the right to abort at will.

A fetus is just as human as a 1-minute old, a 1-year old, a 10-year old, or a 50-year old. Yes, the fetus cannot live without its mother's organs and the fetus doesn't have the same skill-set as the 10-year old but then neither does the 10-year old have the same skill set as the 50-year old. How exactly do people have to "justify" their existence in your world?

If not a human being, what is a fetus? I'm waiting....

You arbitrarily draw the line at "living without your mother's organs" as defining living independently and thus being human. Is a diabetic not human because it must rely on outside assistance to continue living?

The diabetic is not depending on another's organ for life but it is relying on an outside assistance to live indeed. How about an organ donation recepient? That is someone living on another's organ. Inhuman? Don't think so.

Ever heard the adage "Oh, what tangled webs we weave when first we endeavor to deceive."
That reminds me of these pro-abortion arguments. They are only self-serving and WOULD NOT EVEN BE ARGUMENTS IN QUESTION WERE THERE NOT THE FERVOR TO HAVE AT-WILL ABORTION RIGHTS.

By the way, the remark "Oh, Class" referred to a classroom. It was intended to be a comedic moment not an insult.

Yeah my son said "dummycraps." It was funny! He was not opining; he simply misunderstood the word. In fact, he didn't use the word in any way; he confided to me that he thought the word was "dummycrap."

When YOUR kid says something like that, you'll crack up to no matter the political implications. I wouldn't have lashed him had he said "Repugnantcans!"

Achebe: Apart from endangerment to the mother's life, I don't see a lot of clear paths to justify any abortion. Sometimes life calls for bravery in the face of dark challenges.

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Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
PowerbizOnline.com

[This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited March 06, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited March 06, 2001).]

 

How can you put one human life over another? Pretty damn hypocritical if you ask me.

Sorry about the class thing. I know all about the cuteness in the crazy things little kids because of my neices and nephews, and if they ever spit out "dummycraps", I'll die laughing.

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www.swirve.com...The reason Al Gore invented the internet.

 

Pole,

Add someting original...or find another bar stool...lol

Achebe,

I'm cooking now, so I'll have to make it short. I do feel a thread starting building up inside of me though . Here's the short version.

I have no take, because I don't really feel attatched to any ideaology. I collect views of others and their ideologies. That's my passion, and maybe in a way, my ideology. I may be here, but your aren't really going to be able to test the valid of my arguments. I just want to speak for the voices I don't read here.

I guess the best thing I have to resemble an argument is that the Black Minority have Progressive and Conservative factions who argue much like this. They argue vehemently about separatism to the extent of actual segregation. The media bias that Kagy likes to talk about to me is the bias for not reporting that Progressive vs Conservative arguments are different across races. We don't jive, so to speak. Why can't these views enter the mainstream without white mainstream ideologies ignoring or rejecting them. Is this media bias or the cost of admission into the mainstream. Does the media not think that Black ideologies are profitable for public consumuption.

And these are not new ideologies I'm talking about. They are over a century old. The media and our history still ignores them.

stop...3 minutes on the nose. I'll try more at another time.

btw: Cultural relativism is not the right context.

Jeff, in light of achebe's "We're all here, able to test the validity and soundness of arguments." how can I say that I am so far from championing one ideological thought that I have no argument. Don't the Buddhist have something to say about that?