Duncan's Legacy

Ultimately, stats mean sh*t if they don't produce rings. Take Wilt the Stilt for example, Wilt Chamlerlain could score 100 pts a game but he wasn't winning rings that way. He started winning rings by lowering his points dramatically while making his teammates better. IIRC Wilt's ppg dropped to a tad over 20 when he won his first ring, before he averaged 50 points in a season and ended up losing.

The mailman and Amare aren't in TD's league because they haven't proved that they can carry a team to the promiseland. They only proved their can score more, and they can eat Duncan's dust in terms of defense. However, points per game do not equal dominance - shots can be hogged, teammates offensive capability can vary, and points can be created by the assists from teammates. On the other side, as the definite leader of a team, the number of the rings proves Duncan's dominance without a doubt. The result is zero rings in over 20 years of profession despite playing along with John Stockton and Steve Nash for Karla and Amare, and two rings in 8 years with a supporting cast of over the hill D-Rob plus a bunch of scrubs, and some euro guards out of nowhere for Tim Duncan. Give either Stockton, or Nash to TD and the combo would start dynasty. The trophies and rings weigh a hell lot more than a few numbers on paper.

 

Making this statement alone devalues the take that accompanied it a great deal, imho. Stockton is the greatest passer in NBA history. Period.

 

To some extent, I agree with the take that Duncan hasn't put up monster stats in past years. Prior to this year, when Parker and Manu really arrived (ok, Parker probably arrived last year), Duncan needed to put up huge numbers for his team to win, yet he didn't do so consistently over an entire season.

But if that's the only criticism of the guy, then it's pretty hollow. Do we devalue the Lakers' titles when the defeated the Sixers and the Nets? Both of those teams were terrible, yet I don't see anyone on this forum knocking Shaq for beating up on those teams (Sixers had Dikembe and Matt Geiger, Nets had no one in the post that I can remember, or maybe it was Dikembe again, but he was all by his lonesome).

 

Point well taken - he is the assists leader...but would you put Stockton over Magic as a passer? I wouldn't.

 

Actually, I knocked them a bit.

Anyway, like I said, let's see how these Spurs do against the Heat or Detroit.

My hunch is that it will prove out what I'm saying...if not, then I'll have to admit Duncan might indeed belong with the greats.

 

NewYorker i have a question for you.
You are saying that because the spurs did not have good opponents in the finals the championships are not that impressive. but you do know that they also had to play the western conference teams right. They beat some very good teams in the process.

I do not understand how people can say that Duncan is not great. He is a great player. Ok he has a good team, but that team was build around him, and he makes those players better. Duncan is the reason they won 2 championships. barkley and malone did not win any championship.

Look at Malone he played with stockton for so many years and he did not became champion, not once, duncan has never played with a player that is even close to how good stockton was. Malone had some great help in the form of the all time assist leader, duncan has a team of role players build around him. Put duncan togheter with a player of the caliber of stockton nad i will garantee you he will win atleast one championship.

 

I think this is quite misleading. The reason Wilt didn't win a title on some of those peak seasons was because the 2nd best center of the era had like 7 other hall of famers as teammates. One of those years I believe Wilt lead the league in assists, and his team still lost.

Also, what I am focusing on is leading your team to rings AND individually dominant seasons.

Hakeem, Kareen and Shaq all lead their team to rings with seasons something like 27+PPG, 11RPG+ and 3+ BPG. Below are 4 seasons stats from Hakeem and Shaq's championship years, followed by Duncan's on his two ring seasons plus the current potential one.

YEAR FG% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
93-94 .528 .716 11.90 3.6 1.60 3.71 27.3
94-95 .517 .756 10.80 3.5 1.85 3.36 27.8
99-00 .574 .524 13.60 3.8 0.46 3.03 29.7
00-01 .572 .513 12.70 3.7 0.64 2.76 28.7

98-99 .495 .690 11.40 2.4 0.90 2.52 21.7
02-03 .513 .710 12.90 3.9 0.68 2.93 23.3
04-05 .496 .670 11.10 2.7 0.68 2.64 20.3

Also, Kareem in 71 on a championship run had 31.7PPG, 16RPG, 3.3APG .58FG% .69FT% season, and though not kept track was belived to have 4+ BPG. Another year when he lost to arguably the best team in NBA history (Lakers squad with Wilt, Baylor and West) Kareem's team put two of the three playoff loses on them in the WC finals (theat Lakers team were 12-3 in the playofs, 8-1 versus everyone else). Kareem for that season put up 35-16-5 and probably about 4 blocks.

Duncan is way below these three on point production and generally way below in shooting efficiency and blocks. One year (Duncan 02-03) he hangs with them on boards and assists, but usually he is below them there too.

Again until he puts up something in the neighborhood of 27-30PPG, 12-13RPG+ and 3-4+ BPG I see him a solid notch below these three of the greatest big men who did comparable feets and also lead there teams to multiple championships.

If you are drafting today, of course you take a what 22 year old Amare over a 29 year old Duncan. But as good as Amare is, knowing the complete game Duncan developed you take a 22 year old Duncan over him without a doubt.

 

See the post above right above yours....

Let's see how Duncan does in a few weeks in the finals against the Wallaces or Shaq/Mourning/Haslem. Let the truth be told.

If David Robinson's career was tarnished by what Hakeem did to him, then let's see what happens now that Duncan will actually have to play against a defensive big man and an offensive one.

 

Jazz hate aside, I'd pick Duncan over Malone. Put a young Stockton in place of Parker and you'd probably see more rings on Duncan's fingers. Stockton is easily a top 3 PG in the history of the game. Debatebly #1 vs Magic and the Big O. Malone was a great player but you'd have to take into account how many easy buckets he got just off Stockton's feeds to him. Duncan for the most part has been the creator of his own shots and the initiator on offense. And while he hasn't been the most clutch player in the past 10 years, he's stepped it up on crunch time when Malone couldn't. The only real factor you'd have to put in is the Jordan factor. Without Jordan Malone might have gotten 2 rings under his belt. It's really not likely that Duncan would have his rings in the Jordan era.

 

if he even gets close to 25 ppg, then his team is in great shape. If the spurs play the Pistons, there are going to be plenty of 75-74 games. 20 points in games like that will win you championships.

If they play the Heat, he will obviously have better numbers because he will be guarded by Haslem. I'm sure you'll use that as ammunition to hate on him though.

I've got a question for you if you think Amare is better than Duncan. If he's so better, how the hell did his team with 3 all-stars and several great 3 point shooters lose to Duncan's team of Euro's and one-dimensional players? It's all D and team play, but from reading your posts, those are at the bottom of your list of criteria. It's all about that ppg.

 

Phoenix - to be sure, is an immature team. They have room to grow and will, and watch out in the next few years. Amare still made a lot of mistakes, and marion had an awful series.

I think when the suns do learn team defense and get better at their roles, they will be an even more spectacular team.

We'll see what happens. I don't hate duncan, i'm just not ready to annoit him as one of the greatest.

 

Power Forwards usually are about being the strongest player on their team while the center is the tallest. A 4 usually is more offensive oriented then a center, but less defensively so. A 5 is more defensive, and focuses more on blocking shots.

Both play with their backs to the basket, but a power forward has more of a jump shot as well.

Now you look at Duncun, and his play is much more like a center. He sets up in the post, is the tallest on his team, and is the defensive focus. He does have a jumper, but you don't see him shooting from the top of the key, it's really a further out post where he turns around stands there for a bit, and then shots that bank shot.

You look at Dirk, and he's really a Small Forward who's just very tall. Garnett is an anomally as well - I actually don't know what he is. You're getting so many tall quick players that can do so much that the traditional classifications are breaking down.

Both Duncan and Amare are more centers for thier teams, but because they get the power forward position because they are usually defending power forwards. Why? because we're in an age of really crappy centers who can't do much.

In fairness, these days the difference between a 4 and a 5 is slim. There are very few pure 4's or 5's. Dampier is a true 5. Haslem is a pure 4 - he's all rebounding and a lot of jump shots.

Sabonis, Divacs, Kareem where pure 5's. Hakeem was a hybrid. Malone was a true PF.

 

PFs range from Buck Williams to Charles Oakley, to Kal Malone, to Terry Cumming, to Rick Mahorn, to Horace Grant, to Dennis Rodman, to Kevin McHale, to Charles Barkley. Stereotyping wht a PF is is laughable.

Duncan has all the skills of any power forward and more. He can post up. He can shoot from the outside. He can run the floor. He can handle the ball to the point where you not infrequently see him grabbing a rebound dribbling full court and passing off to a wing player to finish the break. He can pass with the best of the big men.

On defense he can guard any power forward in the leauge. He can also do a creditable job when forced on a switch to guard backcourt players. He can also rebound and block shots, amongst the best.

And it's laughable listening to people complain about the lack of big men in his era. Lack of Cs yes. But Duncan has been selected as first team NBA as a POWER FORWARD in what has been called THE ERA OF POWER FORWADS in the NBA from Malone, to Brand, to J O'Neal, to Nowitzki, to Rasheed Wallace, to Garnett,to Barkley. He's been the best at what has been the strongest position in the NBA during his era.

 

Duncun plays like a CENTER. If it walks like a center, talks like a center, then hey, it's a center. Screw what he's listed as. Great, so they put him on the other power forwards because big men in the NBA outside of Shaq really do suck.

Duncun? So the guy can hit a bank shot and dunk on pick and rolls. Great, he rebounds pretty well, and gets some blocks like a 7 footer should. He's not excellent in any statistical category.

I'm sorry but last time I checked, PFs that have thrived in the NBA are the ones that could shoot (Malone, KG, Dirk, Barkley) and dunk on pick and rolls (Amare, Malone, etc). Your description of a center is, as others have point out, a stereotyping view of a center. And how does one WALK and TALK like a center? Sure it's metaphorical, but what does that mean per se?

Let me repeat that - what statistical category does he dominate? It's easy to put up big numbers against a soft league, it's much hard for what Amare did, which is lite up the supposedly best big man in the game right now.

Apparently you like the numbers game so much that you don't wach basketball at all. Amare did a great job against the Spurs but what about his teammates? Did they win the series? Did his great performance swing the momentum the other way in favor of his team? "It's easy to put up big numbers against a soft league" but then you applaud Amare and somehow say that it's harder for him And next time, please sprain both of your ankles in the same season and then try to play Amare. In fact, just one ankle will do. Maybe that will clue you in on how hard it is to try to be mobile in defending someone as athletic as Amare.

I'm not impressed with Duncun. I don't see his game as remarkable anyway, he's very smart, got a solid game, and that little bank shot which the crap players of today can't defend. His numbers are already on the decline. Impressed? hardly. He won't be remembered outside of Texas.

Name me one defender that can defend a bank shot. Do you know if you CAN defend a bank shot? And do you know how HARD it is to shoot a bank shot at an angle? And his numbers are in a "decline" is because of two words: Manu and Tony. They're stepping up and he knows he don't have to dominate in order for the team to win. They have enough firepower as it is. Only when they need him, is when he'll take over.

I think he will struggle to hit 25ppg, and you'll see him look very mortal.

So what if he avgs. 20 and 10 and they sweep whoever comes out of the east? What's your damn excuse then? You're so delusion because of numbers that you fail to see the bottom line: championships.

Point well taken - he is the assists leader...but would you put Stockton over Magic as a passer? I wouldn't.

Why is that? Is it because Magic is flashier? You like a bit of flair more than substance? Base on your barometer of greatness, Stockton dominated in two very different statistical category--steals and assists. He lead the league in each in different years. That's basically saying the man played both ends of the court. He's been on the all-defensive 2nd and 3rd teams. For his career, he shot 38% from the 3pt arc and 52% from the field. How about Magic? 52% and 30% from the 3pt arc. I rather have my PG man be more reliable at the arc when shots are open wouldn't you?

Power Forwards usually are about being the strongest player on their team while the center is the tallest. A 4 usually is more offensive oriented then a center, but less defensively so. A 5 is more defensive, and focuses more on blocking shots.

So basically it's either you're an offensive big man (PF) or a defensive big man (C). And the center is the tallest....wait a minute...isn't Rasho and David listed at 7'0" and 7'1" respectively? And how tall is Duncan listed as? 6'11"?? Well hot damn.....

Both play with their backs to the basket, but a power forward has more of a jump shot as well.

I guess his "little bank shot" isn't considered to be a jump shot....

He does have a jumper, but you don't see him shooting from the top of the key, it's really a further out post where he turns around stands there for a bit, and then shots that bank shot.

Oh I guess there's rules and regulations on what a jump shot is. Dude, freakin Hakeem had the dream shake, baseline jumpers, fadeaway jumpers, what would you classify him?

You look at Dirk, and he's really a Small Forward who's just very tall. Garnett is an anomally as well - I actually don't know what he is. You're getting so many tall quick players that can do so much that the traditional classifications are breaking down.

What happened to "if they walk and talk like a center, they're a center" stuff when you now say that "traditional classifications are breaking down"? How is Dirk a small forward. Give me your definition of a small forward. Because last time I checked, Richard Jefferson, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady were 3s. And since Dirk is a "tall small foward", does that mean his game is the same as theirs?

Both Duncan and Amare are more centers for thier teams, but because they get the power forward position because they are usually defending power forwards. Why? because we're in an age of really crappy centers who can't do much.

I would think that since there's a lot of crappy centers in the league, they would be prone to play MORE at the center position to take advantage of mismatches.

In fairness, these days the difference between a 4 and a 5 is slim. There are very few pure 4's or 5's. Dampier is a true 5. Haslem is a pure 4 - he's all rebounding and a lot of jump shots.

If Dampier is a true 5, you just insulted Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dream, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, and everyone else that had an impact on the center position.

 

This argument has degenerated into non-sense.

Who cares, let's just watch the finals and then post. It's clear that the people who think Duncan is a PF believe that he is.

I guess T-Mac should list himself as a C and people can say he's a good center. Yao can switch to the 3. Then all of you would argue that T-mac is really a center and Yao a small forward.

Dirk is a small forward. Because he plays like one. He's not a power forward...how can anyone call Dirk a Power Forward? That's ludicrous.

 

So if Duncan's a center what was Robinson the first seven years of Duncan's career and what is Rasho the last two?

 

All your posts in this thread have been nonsense. You've contradicted yourself, backed yourself into corners, and never even made any sense to begin with. About 5 different people have come out of the woodwork to blast your points, and your counterarguments have been flawed or nonexistant. You talk about putting aside our hate for Malone, yet you let your hate of the Spurs cloud your judgement and you downplay every one of Duncan's accomplishments. This thread is all but over and you haven't convinced one person to your point of view. Still, your major knock on Duncan is what position he's listed at. That means that you have no solid argument to fall back on. I am officially through wasting my time in this thread.

 

Generally the clear sign of someone who has lost an argument is when the resort to personal attacks. You can't defeat the argument, so you attack the person. It's a classic ploy.

Give it up man, we put up Duncan's stats and they are not that stellar, all that someone could come back was "It's all about championships" which would mean that Robert Horry is currently the greatest player out there right now.

What absurd logic.

Just watch the finals and learn something.