I think I've witnessed personal acts of God before, but not Jesus. I don't know what description Jesus would be in, and I didn't get the inner sense of meeting Jesus before. I'm being serious here. I do have piecemeal accounts of Jesus' love, and I am inclined to pick up and start binging religious books, but I don't have this instant sense that I could get if I read the Bible. Maybe if I read the teachings of different Buddhas, I would get an instant sense of them at the moment. I don't really know, but I do feel a God is out there. Future events that our country will fall in scares the **** out of me, so there's a selfish desire inside me that that feeling is genuine. "Jesus loves you" stickers do rankle me though. Especially when those cars cuts me off. Sometimes I get the impression that people lift their "burden" of loving other strangers by placing it on Jesus and those words, as if saying or displaying it will make me more good natured to them.
That’s one of the reasons why I emphasize that Christians are not perfect, because if someone believes that and a Christian wrongs them then for that person it casts a bad light on Christianity as a whole. You should know that there are also people who call themselves Christians who are not Christians at all. I don’t say this to be judgemental. It’s just a warning for the same reasons and it’s a warning that Christ himself gives. Matt 7: 15-21 is something I’ve quoted here many times in the past. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt 7;&version=31; Ultimately it’s a personal, internal, journey. I think reading the Bible is a great help, but it in itself won’t transform you. I think listening to other people talk about their experiences and beliefs is great too, but you have to discern for yourself what rings true and what doesn’t in what they say and do. No Christian will tell you, or represent to you, 100% truth. We are all flawed, but from true Christians there will also be good fruit, things that you recognise and that resonate with you as true and good. Ultimately, however, you don’t believe because someone told you to believe something. You believe because what you heard or saw resonated with something inside you and knew at that level that it was true. That’s the spiritual voice that you pursue, internally. Help from others is fine but at the end of the day it’s your journey. It’s your personal relationship with God. So back to the topic, Mother Teresa was not perfect. The apostle Paul wasn’t perfect. He was a murderer. King David committed murder and adultery, but these in the end were not things that defined who these people were. They were Christ like in other ways. It is in fact our shortcomings that bring us into relationship with God. (Romans 3: 20) And it is this relationship that later produces the Fruit of the Spirit. Again, this is my understanding and experience.
I have a friend in Pittsburgh that I believe behaves very much like Jesus. I've even taken to asking WWBD when confronted with a difficult question. My friend has been an atheist since the 1960s, but before that he was a Catholic priest for several years.
From what I understand of Christianity Hell is specifically being in an unreedemable state from God. Since to the primary requirement to be with God is to accept Jesus Christ as ones savior then I would say that Non-Christians are going to Hell. Of course I'm not a Christian and don't believe in Heaven or Hell but that's just my understanding. On a side note Dante followed this interpretation but recognized that there were good Non-Christians out there and so they got to stay in a part of Hell that wasn't as bad but still removed from God.
Rhester; Your grandmother sounds like a wonderful woman and an example to all. But I am troubled by the view of your post and even the title of this thread that essentially states that these qualities are "Christian." I say that these qualities are independent of religion and are found in people of all faiths or even non-faith. Compassion is central to Mahayana Buddhism and you're grandmother to me is an example of compassion. A Boddhisattva[/] (Compassionate being.) I would say that your grandmother represents the best qualities of humanity be it Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish or secular humanist.
It may not be as straight forward as this. The example I often quote from the Bible is from Romans 4. Romans 4 Abraham Justified by Faith 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." This is about justification by faith, not works, of course. Note that Abraham was justified by faith by believing in God before Jesus was even born. IMO this doesn’t preclude this being made possible by Jesus’ future sacrifice. Clearly, though, even in the Old Testament, Abraham was justified by faith, but it was faith in God. Further, a lot of people come to know God without knowing very much about Jesus at all. Quite typically it’s after someone becomes a Christian that they begin to study and learn. So how much do you need to know? As you can see, this is a murkier question than one might initially think.
Soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry lee lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden, I found myself in love with the world So there was only one thing that I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long Ding dang a dong bong bing bong.....
I have to admit I'm not that up on discussing Biblical theology but I think what you're saying goes to the dual nature of Christianity. The key difference between Christianity and Judaism is the belief that Jesus is the son of God, the earthly embodiement of God and inseperable from God. So that belief in Jesus cannot be separated from belief in God and vice versa. Righteous Jews like Abraham and Moses who believed in God are still among the blessed since they lived prior to Jesus but Jews from what I understand of the schism is that Jews since then aren't since they haven't accepted Jesus.
The question of the Jews gets more complicated again, but w.r.t. this issue note that Abraham was not justified because he was righteous, and by that I mean that he wasn’t justified because of his good works. He was justified because he believed. He was justified because he had faith. Also, my point above was that the concept of “accepting Jesus” is not a well defined one. What does one have to know about Jesus to accept him, for example? As I said, a great many people do most of their learning about Jesus after they become Christians, so what does it really mean to have “accepted Jesus”? It's a more difficult question than it first seems.
I have a question. As I have learned, many things from the old testament was disregarded once Christ came onto the earth (supposedly). Like sacrificing a goat, or not doing work on the Sabbath. Yet Christians keep quoting from the Old testament. Wtf is up with that? Are you guys going to follow the old testament or not?
In an attempt to derail this thread Burton Mack points out twelve "core sayings" of early Q1 material that give us a picture of what Jesus taught during his life. All references are to Luke's gospel: 1. Love your enemies (6:27) 2. If struck on one cheek, offer the other (6:29) 3. Give to everyone who begs (6:30) 4. Judge not and you won't be judged (6:37) 5. First remove the beam from your own eye (6:42) 6. Leave the dead to bury their dead (9:60) 7. Go out as lambs among wolves (10:3) 8. Carry no money, bag, or sandals (10:4) 9. Say, "God's rule has come near you" (10:9) 10. Ask and it shall be given to you (11:9) 11. Don't worry about living (12:22) 12. Make sure of God's rule over you (12:31)
There are some great differences that would be interesting to discuss concerning the different religions. Yes there are common virtues that can be seen in different religions. My question is a Christian one. I was not thinking of why a Hindu is obedient to Hindu God's or what motivates a Muslim to be honest. I am asking if you have met someone of whom you could say "Now that is a real Christian" or "Now that is what Jesus Christ was like" and what made you come to that conclusion. I find that I am stereotyped in America. And I find the most basic complaint against Christians is hypocrisy. I also have heard alot of perception that Christians tell everyone they are going to hell. Jesus said people would go to hell and there were plenty of people mad at Him for many different reasons, but I don't ever remembering anyone saying He was a hypocrite. Nor have I ever heard one person say Jesus is just a right wing fanatic. Or Jesus is just another one of those television preachers who wants your money. So I am wondering if there are CHRISTIANS that you have met that you would say that is the 'Real Deal' and why did you come to that conclusion. Is my question clear as mud now?
To address this post, I feel that you have to delineate between beliefs and virtues. In doing this, you can clearly differentiate beliefs that separate a Christian from a Muslim from a Jew, etc. However when it comes to virtues, I do not know what virtues are "Christian." The reason I say this is because to me, "virtues" extend to all faiths. I do not know of a single virtue that is exclusively Christian. If you ask me (and maybe you are) whether I have ever met a person that exemplified virtues to where I thought they were the ideal Christian, then I would say that I have met many people like that. The caveat to this though is that I would say that they are the ideal Christian on the basis of their beliefs and not their virtues because once again, virtues are not exclusive to any faith. Sorry for being so difficult. Maybe we are all making this a lot more difficult than it should be.
Aggierocket, seems I remember you are Muslim. Did you ever read "Crossing the Rubicon"? No you are not difficult you are helping me and that is what I am asking for is help from both Christians and non Christians. I am asking about stereotypes- the right wing fundlementalist label, the hypocrites- all Christians are hypocrites. I am not trying to discuss the shared virtues or different beliefs of religion. I am asking about what would make or has made someone say now that is the real Christian, or that person is what Jesus was like. My original intent was to relate how different my Grandmother was from other Christians I knew. And how much of a big difference those qualities made. I want to understand more because I would like to be a Pastor who helps people become something that is genuine, not something that is repugnant for all the wrong reasons. Most would hold Jesus in a favorable light. I would say He is God in the flesh. I find few who would trash Him. So as a Muslim you probably encounter Christians who you feel muddy the very name or others who give you a feeling of something divine, hey they are the genuine article. I am asking if you have any experiences to share like this.
A non-Christian said to me once that the thing that stood out for him as different about Christianity was the spirit of forgiveness. I’m not sure how Buddhism deals with the concept by I think this is one of the things that does differentiate Christianity from many of the other major religions anyway.
Forgiveness comes through understanding. Buddhism deals very much with understanding and forgiveness. It is fundamental.
