Hakeem is far and away the best athlete to ever play in Houston. Amare without Nash is hardly a superstar. Nash sets him up with point blank shots left and right. Without that, Amare's still good, but nothing great. Comparing Amare to Hakeem is just ludicrous; it's like comparing Kobe to Jordan. We saw where those comparisons ended up. Remember, Hakeem gave the city it's only 2 titles. Nolan Ryan fell short both in 80 and 86 in the playoffs. Earl Campbell was a beast, but got stuffed hard in the 2 AFC-C losses in Pittsburgh and never got the Oilers to the Super Bowl. I would rate Campbell easily over Ryan though but behind Hakeem. Comparing McGrady to Hakeem, Amare to Hakeem, etc, is ignorant. McGrady has never even made it out of the first round. Amare shoots in the mid 30's against Yao. Call me crazy but I don't see a young or old Hakeem having any trouble scoring on yao, a mediocre at best defender.
Can more people approach the subject with some balance? Hakeem was one of the top 2-3 centers in NBA history and carried the Rockets on his back to 2 NBA championships. For 5-6 years, he was a top 3 NBA player. His legacy suffers somewhat because of MJ's gigantic shadow. At the same time, he didn't play at a championship level his entire career. Early on, he was very immature, did not (or could not) pass the ball well at all and was oftentimes a very difficult, profane jerk on the floor. His game was not well-rounded and his "court sense" was very limited (and I'm being kind). Despite these flaws, he gave a full effort every game, played with the HEART of a champion and never gave up. It is completely unfair to compare the careers of T-Mac or Amare Stoudemire to Hakeem. Can we at least wait until they are 30? If you compare Hakeem at 22 vs. Amare, Amare is ahead. If you compare Hakeem at 25 to T-Mac, T-Mac is ahead. We've got to give these 2 young star a few more years before we measure them by the high standard of the Dream's career. Amare has developed his game quite a bit and will continue to improve. Don't sell him short just because he plays for the Suns or has an attitude you don't like. There is no telling how good he can become. For that matter, he reminds me more of Moses Malone than Dream anyway. Wait until he gets older (and wiser) and gains 30 pounds or so. He will be an absolute beast and his rebounds will go up! On the contrary side, I don't see him ever becoming a great defensive player. Maybe he proves me wrong. T-Mac needs no commentary. His skill set and raw ability are way beyond Dream's. What he eventually accomplishes as a Rocket remains to be seen. We can only hope it includes a championship or two. I think it looks promising. Will T-Mac have the same mentality as Dream and develop a new facet every offseason? To be determined. Bottom line: The Dream we are remembering didn't play at that level his whole career. In fact, there were some low times along with the good times. His game continually developed over many years and at his peak the Rockets won a couple of championships. His book is finished and is an all-time best seller. The books for Amare, T-Mac, LeBron, etc are still being written. My guess is at least one of these 3 will be comparable to Hakeem when their final chapter is written. Lastly, how in the world can you put Nolan Ryan above Hakeem? Forget it man. I loved Nolan, especially his competitive attitude. The man was nasty on the field. But he never won a championship here or an MVP (or Cy Young). NOBODY outside of Houston would ever place him among Cy Young, Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson. You've GOT to be kidding me! Too much homer juice. I like Earl a lot also, but his accomplishments don't match Dreams. But this is Houston, and football is > hoops. I'm a realist and know that if you polled 100 people in town, Hakeem would finish 3rd behind those 2 for various reasons. But if pure athletic merit was the only factor, it's a landslide for Dream.
Yeah, hakeem was far greater than Nolan Ryan, and I'm an even bigger Astros fan than Rockets fan. Ryan was a very good pitcher who did one thing sensationally for a very long time(strike people out). Hakeem was al all-round great who was unquestionably the greatest at his position during his generation. Nolan Ryan may have played during about 3-4 generations of pitchers - but he was never the best.
I agree Amare has the potential to be as good as Hakkem offensively. Although it seems like he likes to face up more than play with his back to the basket. Kind of reminds me of the old David Robinson who would drive to the basket from 15 feet out.
TMac's skill set is better than Hakeem's? That's just funny. Hakeem was the main reason the Rockets took down Showtime and got to the NBA finals in his 2nd season. I'd call that playing at a championship level. Has anything Stoudemire accomplished so far come remotely close to Hakeem getting the Rockets past one of the greatest teams ever and into the Finals his 2nd year? How bout TMac actually gets out of the freakin first round one of these seasons (he's now 0-5 in playoff series) before comparisons to one of the 5-10 best players in the entire history of the NBA? TMac has played very poorly in both game 7's he's been in. Playoffs are when you make your legacy. Look at Stoudemire's game in the time that Nash was out this year to see the caliber of his play. His production is largely a byproduct of Nash's incredible passing. Without Nash, he's probably not even an all-star caliber player. The Stoudemire-Moses Malone comparison is a good one; he's much more in that mold whereas the only player in the NBA who's game resembles Hakeem right now is Duncan. If you want to compare Hakeem to some of the modern day players, Duncan and Shaq are the 2 most relevant ones. To mention Stoudemire, McGrady, Yao, etc, is asinine.
Stoudamire resembles shaq much more than hakeem, in the sense that both Stoudamire and shaq are athletic freaks with a relatively weak skill set. Hakeem was a dancer; they're bulls.
Those three were definately the best players to play for Houston B-ball/football/baseball(I am not counting 1-2 year loaner players). Olajuwon ended with more team success than the Tyler Rose or Ryan. It's difficult for me to pick my favorite so I'll go with.............................Houston's very own #34 that is kinda strange isn't it?
When Dream came to talk ISLAM and its philosophies to our University, I got to shake his hand. I have been saying it all along... stop disrespecting DA MAN, newbies and bandwagonners... you don't know that in '93, Dream should have won the MVP had it not something to do with him being out so many games and Barkley being on TV and such a loudmouth. How about LOSING to us the next two years? How about DREAM owning the SUNS? Got to meet him. I can die now a happy man.
I'm 36 and I remember Hakeem real well. Hakeem was the greatest center that I have ever seen. He was a very complete player. But it's hard to compare a center with a shooting guard like Tracy. Hakeem still had to get the ball. Tracy gets the rebound, takes the ball down court, and creates his own shot. I stand by my earlier comments concerning Tracy. I have never seen anyone hit from everywhere on the court like Tracy.
I agree...Although I saw on ESPN classic the back to back season, and man, Hakeem was the man...The Rockets had the right role players, the right everything...IMO, we're not that far away, but only time will tell...
I take offense to the over 50 comment. When a guy goes up for his first dunk attempt and knocks out his front teeth... When I see an 18 year old freshman benched in practice because the first team offense (on a ranked team) has gone 20 minutes and cannot get a shot off.... When I see another 6' 10" man jump up and grab the top of the backboard (the tallest thing in the gym we could find for him to touch) with two hands and have room to spare.... When I see one of these players block three pointers from inside the lane, palm the ball and bring it down, hand it back to you and say "Here's your shot 'Mon', Try again". When i see anything like that from these kids today, maybe we'll call them freaks. There was this other kid that did some of these things before Akeem did them and you didn't even have to be there to know about him. This kid was such a freak he was the NCAA broad jump champion as a freshman. He could stand at the free throw line and dunk his free throws. there is a rule forcing you to release the ball and the ball touch the rim before you can cross the line because of this kid. (and to think everyone gets excited when Jordon runs from 80 feet across the gym and dunks from the free throw line. This guy used to stand and do it from the free throw line) They used to throw the ball over the backboard and this kid would catch and dunk the inbounds play. It used to be the most unstopable inbounds play of all time. The ball can't come in bounds from over the backboard anymore and used to couldn't cross the plane for that reason. They used to play on a thin key shaped like a thermometer. Because of the inside play of this kid, They widened the lanes. There are rules named after this guy and they are not the rules you might think. No, the Jordon rules were written about how the NBA can turn a charismatic guy into an NBA legend and can do it anytime they please. These rules are called the Chamberlain rules and they were written because the man altered the game. There were over 50 rules adjusted in college and NCAA play because of this freak of nature. A flashy guy that the NBA chooses to promote doesn't make him a freak. It just makes him another guy the NBA is pushing upward by giving him 16 trips a night to the foul line while in most playoff games he never commits a foul. Is Shaq a freak? Can any other 350 pound man that can't shoot plow his shoulder into your chest, knock you to the ground, dunk on you and call the defender for the block? No, you need the Jordon rules protecting you to be able to do that. True freaks revolutionize the game or change the way you play it and They come along once every generation or so. You don't have to be over 50 to know about them, you just have to be able to read.
Agreed. He was one of the best ever to play the game. Period. These other guys have a long way to go to establish their legacy. Duncan might be the closest to establishing himself in the stratosphere of all-time greats....but not yet.
You're kidding, right? At 22 Akeem was averaging 24 and 12, blocking more than 3 shots a game, and oh by the way leading his team to the NBA Finals. Without the NBA MVP as a teammate. At 25 he was up to 25/14/4, and had actually won multiple playoff series. Hakeem was a prodigy as much as those guys are, and then some.
When the SUns actually make the Finals, re-post the argument. Akeem did lead the rockets in his third season to the finals. Amare played basketball his entire life. Akeem was in his 7th season of organized ball and was exceeding those numbers. Amare's 7th season of organized ball was still in junior high. No comparison. Iam sure Amare was good in Junior high, but in his 7th season of basketball, would he be in the finals of the NBA?
Tod, Haven't seen you around the BBS lately! Good to see you back I agree about TMac...the guy's a 100% freak! But how fair is it to say he's a loser because he can't get past the 1st round like KG couldn't do for years? -P1st, S2nd
Craigloria, Wilt was the most unstoppable player of any era hands down, but there have been many (though not so much now) that could have played him pretty well, Dream included. In his era only, Russell could frustrate him but when you grab 50 rebounds in a game against your defensive arch-nemeisis it shows how truly dominant he was. Comparing Dream to Wilt is difficult. Certainly in their primes, both could score on each other and block each other's shots. And the fouls he would have received in the more modern age would not have usually been "and 1"s. There are so many eye-popping things about Wilt's accomplishements, but my favorite is when he announced that he was going to lead the league in assists when he went to the Lakers and did. That's just sick.
apostolic... have you ever seen him play? do you know anything about basketball? at the risk of calling out someone who has more posts than myself (that seems to anger the elders here) what are you talking about? Maybe you were in L.A. or N.Y. when Akeem was playing ball. Maybe you were at N.C. in 84 and over come by the last second miracles, whatever happened look up some statistics, watch some tape, maybe go read a few news clippings then come talk about Dream and how Amare is ahead of him. Or Tmac for that matter. OK, I'm with you here. But this is the last thing you say that makes any sense. Didn't play at a championship level? Right. At no point in the first 12 years of his career did he average less than 20/10. In fact it was rare for him to average less that 22/11. Throw in 3 to 4.5 blocks almost two steals and 2 - 3 assists a game? Not championship caliber? 26-11-3-3-3? He stepped up his game in the playoffs. He shot better than 50%. What's not championship caliber? His game was not well rounded? Did you watch him play? Sure he didn't dump the ball out every time, but when the 2nd best player on your team was sleepy floyd what would you do? You don't average better than 24 a game on over 50% shooting over a 12 year span, finish first all time in blocks and 7th in steals 7th IN STEALS... AS A CENTER???? without being well rounded? So the strides that Hakeem made in the first 5 years he played basketball vs the strides amare made the first 15 years he played? come on man. When you talk about development remember that at 22 Akeem was just 5 or 6 years removed from playing handball in Nigeria. Come on Hakeem was taking teams that were not much better than the Magic were last year to the playoffs year in and year out in a then dominant Western Conference. He played against legendary centers, I doubt anyone will be talking about Dampier in 20 years. Man you just summed it up. You complain that Hakeem wasn't well rounded when he came into the league. Much more so than Amare was this year. DEFENSE. I hate to beat a dead horse, but lets take a look at this again PTS FG% REBS AST STL BLK Player A 26 55.9 8.9 1.6 .96 1.63 Player B 23.5 52.6 11.5 2.0 1.97 3.40 Player A is a very offensively gifted player. Well basically he can score. Player B can obviously score. Rebounds the ball alot more. Is a little better passer and obviously plays better defense. In fact he ranks in the top five in 3 categories. We know who A and B are and well rounded doesn't seem to be a question. Oh yeah and player A had the MVP on his team and was the benificiary of sic passing and an insane number of alley-oops. OK so the second part of this remains to be seen. But the whole thing about raw ability? Hakeem was playing on raw ability for his first 3 or 4 years in the league. He didn't come up as a super star like TMAC did. He wasn't respected like TMAC is. He put in work. He was supposed to play second fiddle to Sampson for a few years. TMAC at 25 has been in the league for what 7 years? Accomplished more that Hakeem? Come on man. He has a different kind of talent I'll give you that. TMAC can dominate when he wants to.... Hakeem did dominate night in and night out. Look at what TMAC did this last year. Hakeem was taking perennial losers to the playoffs year in and year out. Sure they got bounced early but they had no business being there. There was no robbin for him, it was batman and his little brother's when hakeem was doing it. After his rookie year through around 93 the best player he played with was a guy named sleepy. TMAC has had star power with him most of his career. VC Hill (ok we'll give you his time in orlando) and then Yao. Hakeem played with Sampson one real year before Ralph went the way of E-mail, then spent the next few years watching the rest of his team (lucas, wiggins, lloyd) snort away a magical opportunity. What??? Did your conscience get the best of you? You spend a great ammount of time trying to convince us that two budding stars are ahead of a legend in their development, not by telling us of their greatness, but by trying to point out (innacurate I might add) deficiencies in his game. Come on. No bail out here. You made some statements that have very little basis, backed nothing up with any facts (I'm sure I'll get the "Homer", and "Just watching him play I felt that...." lines in a response) and then try to back door the reader by saying "His book is finished and is an all-time best seller"? Nice metaphore but go watch his old film. Hakeem played against the best centers of 3 eras. He quietly dominated the league for years in a market the country has chosen to ignore. Bad draft choices (que the buck johnson announcement) along with injuries and well coke, kept houston off of the basketball map for most of his career. His best years might have come before we won the championships when he was averaging 26/13 with 4.17 blocks 1.81 steals 3.5 assists a game and that was just 2 years removed from the eye injury. Before his knees went out on him the "lows" were 21.2 12.1 4.34 blocks 2.3 assists and 2.16 steals a game. The reason Ryan isn't included in the same discussion as Cy Babe or JR is this, he didn't play that long ago.... he never hit more than 5 hr in a season and he wasn't black. Seriously. Cy was one of a kind and has the PREMIER AWARD in baseball named after him. Babe Ruth was all world in the NY dynasty of the 20's not to mention one of the most famous curses of all time was named after him. And that Robinson character... HE MADE HISTORY IN A WAY NO ATHELETE EVER DID. Then again maybe he is included in those discussions. Ryan again though was also the benificiary of bad teams. The teams he played for over his career were below 500. He only played on 3 teams that won 90 games or more, in fact he played on more teams that won 70 game or less than he did who won 90 games or more. Early BTW doesn't garner more respect than Dream. Maybe in the 35 and up crowd, because at 28 I remember him running but not the impact he had on the game. I understand it now but didn't when i was watching him. I did however understand what it meant to watch hakeem hoist that trophy above his head. OK maybe I was a little rough to open, but you just seem to have wires crossed. Ryan > Hakeem > Earl. But keep in mind that each was the dominant force in their respective sport and interestingly enough the span they were dominant followed the same order above. I'm out. Mike
