The Salem Witch Trials and the Holocost were due to Christians proseletyzing? That's news to me. ------------------
First off, the Salem Witch trials were perpetrated by Puritans (Christians) and the Holocaust was in the name of Jesus despite being about the most un-Christian act ever. I certainly would not attribute Hitler's actions to his belief in Christ. In fact, if he had a stronger belief, the Holocaust would have never happened. Now, on to the rest... Again, you are using circular logic. That is the same logic that asks, "If God is so powerful, can He create a rock He cannot move?" That is a never-ending circle. I do not deem my view as superior to anyone else's about anything. I don't always agree, but I don't consider what I think better, just different. Like I said, it like language to me. Religions are all their own language. Even evangelical Christians who choose to preach to everyone in their sight are a language to me. They are on their path and I'm on mine. If they choose not to recognize mine, that's cool, but I will not accept their dogma for MY life. My life is still my choice. It is important to understand that I don't really believe in the concept of right and wrong as most people do. I believe that EVERYTHING in the world, especially when it comes to beliefs, opinions and the like, is gray rather than black and white. Our ideas are based on our beliefs which are entirely subjective. We can no more decide that we have the morally superior view than we can know what the world will be like in 100 years. Why? Because everything is based on an infinite number of possibilities. As things move along and are impacted by other things, they change forever. As a result, none of us are capable of making concrete assertions about anything. That's just a fact not an opinion. If you want to believe you are right about anything, that is certainly up to you. The point I was making is that you don't have a right to tell me what to believe. That's how this whole thing got started. If you do tell me what to believe, it is my choice to say, "No thank you" and move along. Moral superiority aside, our greatest asset is our humility. The moment we feel that we have the answers, life has a way of asking different questions. I do not consider my views or opinions superior to anyone. I just don't want anyone telling me what I have to think or believe. I am open-minded enough to listen and smart enough to understand if that is my choice. However, if I choose not to, I ask that you respect that decision as well just as I respect your decision to not listen to me. I don't take anything here personally. I wouldn't have made it this long if I did. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible.
Traj & Jeff, Serve, return, volley, volley... You guys can never end it with this line of reasoning. Traj is right, but so is Jeff. Traj, you can get anyone on just about any issue with that logic. I understand what you are saying Jeff is, ultimately, passing judgement. unfortunately, just about everything in life requires passing judgement. What must be differentiated, however, is a "positive" and "negative" judgement. While these are loaded words, it is easier to ilustrate. positive should really be neutral, i guess. positive judgement: one makes that has no outward negative force, usually an inward judgement. In other words, "There are many colors in the world, but I like shirts that are lime green." This, I think, is how Jeff perceives his spiritual path. negative judgement: one mkes that has some kind of negative or external disrupting force. This, just as positive, runs the gamut. Generally any kind of superiority judgement or whatever. Of course we all make these as well through many different avenues. The problem with religion is that it can be concentrated negative judgement, thus having a much greater impact - such as religious persecution. Any kind of dogmatic, idealistic issues is loaded with such forces. Whenever I feel really bored, I go to the Vegan Outreach BBS - it drives me insane to see vegans stand on superiority platform and jusdge meat eaters, different kinds of vegetarians, and even other vegans (for not being vegan enough). Of course, meat eaters go to the board too and are just as self righteous. Anyway, I digress. I do not know if this has been helpful, or just more of the same. ------------------ Big A, little a bouncing B, The System might have got you, but it won't get me.
Traj, Excellent posting. My only comment is that I think people were just taken off-guard by the inaguration thing. Sure, presidents keep their identitiy, but the fact that Bush's prayer (by Billy Graham's son, I think) treads new water, as it mentions Jesus in an exclusive way -- "the only." This, despite the fact that all of our presidents have been Christian. Most have kept it to just God references. I agree that the other doomsday predicting of the country going into a religious concentration camp is fishing a bit. but these things will always occur in our sports-like politics - go team! ------------------ EZLN
First let me say I'm not religious at all. Second, I do believe that Jesus is recognized across many different religions throughout the world as being a person of great significance so I find it hard to believe religious people would be offended by that type of comment. Also, if I'm not mistaken the founding fathers of our country were mostly Christian in their beliefs and there are many references to God in the overall structure of our government. For example, I've never heard of anyone being offended to swear to God when being sworn to give testimony. Many people understand it's simply an oath to tell the truth, not a judgement on whether or not you believe in a god. I think a lot of yall are just choosing to whine and nitpick about insignificant things because you're displeased with the election results. BTW, why in the hell are we using tax payer money to give abortion counseling to other countries? That is utterly ridiculous. ------------------ "Somebody DO something out there." -Bill Walton
mcmark ,Thank you for pointing out the way they hunted Clinton for 8 years, the whole thing (politics) is just a game and they don't like the idea of being "It"...tough sh*t! ------------------ C-son _ __________ _ !Viva La' Dream!
Just got back to the thread and to clarify my point - Jesus died for all people - Jews and Gentiles. Of course He didn't die for Christians - there were none until after His death. If you believe He was just a man, with no fulfilling prophecy to save the world through the sheding of His blood, then yes, He died a religious persecution. If you believe that He is the only Son of God and His death paid the price of all people's sins who believe, then you are labeled a Christian. I am a child of God, saved by His work, not mine. There were hundreds of testment prophecies about the coming of the Son of God - some very perplexing on how one could be true given another - Jesus fulfilled every one. The Jews were looking for someone to save them from the Romans. God did them infinately better - He saved them (and anyone who believes) from eternal Hell - that's what my works earned me. God's rules - not mine. And it's easy (and fun), you just have to believe and have faith in Him. That's the person's choice. ------------------
Art: That's a really nice way of putting it. It is very comforting really to think of it that way. Thanks for writing that. I, oviously, don't necessarily view it the same way but I appreciate the beauty inherent in the belief. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible.
Actually, outlaw, there is something in Christian doctrine called the "age of accountibility". This is what protects children prior to baptism and people who've never heard about Jesus. Once you are old enough to understand and have the info, they have to use it. Although, some more hard line Christians believe that only those "born again" go to heaven. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible.
Can a million Jack Chick tracts be wrong? We all burn in hell. Atheists, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Shintoists, Zoroastrians, Pagans, Satanists, you name it, we burn. Isn't Christianity fun? When Christians aren't trying to do the murderous work of Gawd themselves, that is. They've been known to slip on occasion.
Outlaw - the answer is yes. Remember, God's rules - not mine. Forgiveness is given to those who ask and believe. According to His word - The wages of sin is death but the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. My words again - That's an eternal death that someone earned as payment for thier sin. Jesus paid the ultimate price to those who recieve and believe. Is all that fair? You may say no. I thank God I'm not going to get what I deserve/earned - I'm forgiven. Think of it this way - only the perfect can live with God forever. Who's perfect? No one. But let's just say by chance that one person was perfect. He dies for someone. How many people could he save (allow them to live with God instead of him (sorry for the male example)) for his life? One. How many human lives are equal to God's only Son? Infinate. He paid it all to those who believe. All people who accept Jesus for their savior are completely forgiven. Are they perfect? No. But they are completely forgiven. No other payment is acceptable. These are God's rules - not mine. But before you think that harsh. Remember, Jesus was at the Father's right hand. He gave up his throne for a time to save the human race. To get a small picture, read a few headlines and then think of all the stuff that goes on that never makes the news. Born a man, ridiculed, despised, tortured and killed between 2 thieves. From there he went to hell before going back "home". He knew all about this before he said yes. I'm amazed he'd do that for the "best" person in the world - much less the worst. That's just a glimse of God's love. His rules say that rejecting His son and what He did is the unforgivable sin. And yes Jeff, most (myself included) will tell you there is an age of accountability though scripture is not absolutely clear on that. To sum it up all I can say is I used to not believe and then 1 day - I did. And now, I wouldn't trade 1 day since for any/all day before. ------------------
It's bad enough our tax dollars have to go towards killing babies here, you want us to have to pay for people to do it in other countries too? No thanks. Make a private donation if you're so concerned.
AMEN Timing.... Errr... I mean, I agree with you heartily. ------------------ "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..." - Mark Twain -
Ah, Jack Chick . . . when racist judgmental uninformed propaganda-loving people learn how to draw . . . ------------------
so a murderer who recants his sins on his deathbed and who believes in Jesus will go to heaven but the innocent atheist that he killed won't? is that how it works? what about the millions of people in the world who have never even heard of JC? are they facing eternal damnation for their ignorance? ------------------
WOW Freak! I wondered when you would chime in. Good to see you. BTW I do make private contributions thank you very much. ------------------ 'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'
BTW freak, did you vote for me in the Survivor thread? You little rascal you! ------------------ 'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'
Have to say I have nothing but admiration for Jeff and the way he keeps his cool and argues so thoughtfully...man am I ever glad I didn't buy into this one One comment on Buddism however... having spent a considerable amount of time living in a Buddhist Kingdom, I was truely amazed at how accepting and tolerant the people their are. Their is a reason Buddhism is the only religion that no war has ever been declared "in the name of"... My wife is a very devout Buddhist...and it was wonderful to learn about the religion and see the completely different mindset from her and her family. I already had a strong knowledge, but to see it up close and be part of a Buddhist community was a real eye opener. Every Buddhist I have ever talked to have said they totally respect other people's rights and other people religions. Indeed, in their eyes, Jesus Christ was the type of person they aspire to be like, just as they try to be like the Buddha himself. I wish more religions would take a similar view.Theirs much to be said for tolerance and empathy in the world... ------------------ [This message has been edited by ScreamingRocketJet (edited January 29, 2001).] [This message has been edited by ScreamingRocketJet (edited January 29, 2001).]
Thanks for posting that Screaming. That is really an interesting viewpoint and I appreciate it. Namaste to your wife. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible.
