Population Control, D&D

If China consumed as much as other developed Asian nations, all of the world's food supply would be exhausted. Their standard of living is rising and the population is still growing. Before China's population starts to decline, estimate are that it'll grow another half a billion.

Mexico had a successful awareness program that started in the late 70s. They used education, family planning, health care to reduce the urban population burden. Plus they broadcasted a heavy media campaign for population control.
In 1974 there were 6.7 births per female.
1994- 3.2 births per female

Sustainability studies are benchmarks like horsepower or microprocessor speed. It doesn't account for clean water shortages, logistics of food distribution, the unequal distribution of wealth, cost/benefits of existing damaging technologies over new technologies, and growth in cost of living standards of emerging nations. Third world countries are victims of mega cities with 10+ million people populations that have sprawls of poor ghettos on the outlying borders. The city doesn't have the infrastructure nor planning to account for these people. Sure, they can be sustained if you mean kept alive, but those people live in slums because they're emmigrating from conditions in their previous village.

Then we have the issue of clean water. Most of the US's clean water is directed towards manufacturing and agriculture. Border disputes in the future might not be from oil, but rather clean water and river routes. The EPA oversees the cleanness of our rivers and our neighbor to the north doesn't have water shortage problems. Other countries aren't as fortunate and might be rivals that hamper political cooperation. All it would take would be something like global warming or building a dam that cuts off another country's supply.

Is there enough resources in the world to make everyone live like the US? We already consume more than 30% of the world's resources, yet we're 6% of the world's population. Economically, with the same standard of living there wouldn't be third world countries to exploit or offshore. With different cultures, what makes us think they'll live and procreate like we do?

Our oceans are being overfished and a moratorium to suspend fishing seems unlikely. Current irrigation methods are unsustainable, yet its practiced because of government subsidies. Arable land is being desertified through negligence and ignorant practices. Generally, is human nature taken into account? There's a lot of emphasis on technology that is far off or unsustainable. Nuclear can't last beyond 2 years if it was the primary source. Cold fusion and hydrogen is not available.

There will be a peak and transition when the entire world acheives better standards of living, but the transition before the peak will get messy because there will be disputes over resources and the needs of their people. Controlling population and theoretical sustainability exist on different planes of thought.

 

My thoughts exactly. I wish I wouldn't have read this tonight.

I put nothing past any government...my own included.

 

The earth could handle 100 billion ~ so really what is your point?

Here is an easy example for you ~ San Paulo, Mexico City, and Bombay are all unbearably overpopulated now, but you could still cram 4 times as many people in them and consider the population(s) sustainable.

Intelligent population control is a must for the health of our planet ~

Strict adherence to religious policy isn't the answer when you are dealing with 6+ billion people on a planet with finite resources.

 

wait a second..seriously. i understand you believe that. but do you know how that sounds to twhy???

Yeah...the Creator of the universe...the one who literally is the owner's manual for this whole deal...yeah, doing what He says is not the answer. that guy doesn't know what He's talking about!!



as Tribe once said..."once again a case of your feet in my Nikes."

 

When I read about children being tied down and starved to death... I just had a visceral reaction. As a parent, doing something like that hits you even more. I'm against 3rd term abortions, unless the health of the mother is at risk, and that's a belief I've come to from reading discussions in this forum, btw, but to do all those things at the behest of the government... well, I really hope it's not true. If it were, I would break off relations with China tomorrow. I don't care how much prices would go up here. I could care less about the repercussions. Those things are unspeakable. I'm sure our Chinese friends agree, and that it's not true. If it happened in the past, however, did those who approved that policy, and did those who did the deeds, ever pay for their actions? I'd like to know.



Keep D&D Civil!!

 

Don't you mean 'her'?

After all it's Mother Nature we are talking about here...

 

Perhaps it was for this reason that my visa application was denied for my trip to China in early July. My procreative acts are a disruptive threat to China's sovereignty.

 

Thank yOu

Rocket River
OverPopulation is a myth

 

The world has had the old fasioned solutions, that is through war, and femine. Maybe some would say that's what God's solution is.

 

twy, nice link to the Stanford professor's site. I hope to get around to spending a bit more time on it.

Do you see his site as somehow supporting your fundamentalist Catholic positions on birth control? or was the natural birth control thing completely unrelated?

Can you explain why, aside from obedience to the Pope, why the Catholic church is against condoms, but supports family planning through rhythm or abstinence. If it is just a case of naturalness, why not be against eye glasses or hearing aids.

 

Well, first off NFP is not the rhythm method. (seriously they tell you this like 50 times in NFP class, rhythm method 91% effective, NFP 99%)

Second, the point was unrelated to the Stanford professors website. It was more of, my fiance is the youngest of 14, and she's had people actually come up to her and tell her her family was selfish and evil for stealing resources.

Thirdly, There is a difference in working with nature, i.e. an eyeglass bends the light to get your eye working correctly, adn working against nature, i.e. I want to have sex, whenever I want it, and I want none of the results. I want to make the procreative act a dead act, I want to have sex but I don't want to give myself completely. NFP teaching specifically says that NFP cannot be used in this way, i.e. simply as contraception, that if you have the means to support children, it is your duty to do so.

Also, the sexual act is a bit different. In the eyes of the church, it is rooted in morality for it is the complete giving of self, which is a lot different than seeing or hearing.

Edit: oh yeah, I guess I brought up the NFP thing because of something I read from the Pope about the best way to cure a lot of the third world problems is to institute the sacraments, i.e. marriage, which includes no sex before marriage. These teachings obviously cannot be implemented over night but there is still some great work being done. Africa is one of the fastest growing Catholic areas. On how to stop aids, the whole question of is it ok to sin to stop something from happening comes up, and this is where I turn to my church for I truly do not feel qualified to answer.

 

Basically yes, although they are more careful that the baby's crown never sees the light until after they ram a shaft into the head and suck the brains out.

 

Hi, Deckard and MadMax:

This is the problem I can understand but still hard to accept: bloody stories sell much better. While you guys readily accepted the googled FACTS and raved, you conveniently neglected my contrasting story about the orphanage part. On the contrary, I have read the child molesting stories all the time here in America, should I assume some members here are hypocrites who are pro-life, pro-human-rights but are children molesters at the same time. Instead, I still give MJ the privilege of doubt at this point. Maybe you will argue your resent is against the government of China only, but don’t you see my story is from the other side, including me and the parents from USA, Europe, etc. BTW, at least in the 80’s and early 90’s, it is very common that volunteers from schools to visit orphanages and help.

As for the abortion, I have no personal stories to deny it but would like to raise a few questions. First, I think we should put it in the big picture. That is, for all those abortions in China (and I admit, much much more than here in USA. I have read that at the beginning of every new school year, many students have to do that after a happy summer), what percentage of them are of late term ones. I guess it is between 1% and 10% but I don’t insist it is fact. You are welcome to bring your story. And I would also like to ask, for every new gun coming in the USA market each year, how many of them lead to shooting of death or serious injury.

Second, I have always believed that, unlike math, so often there is no 100% right or wrong, heaven or hell in real life. It is all about where you draw your line, some to the left some to the right. I know your line is against 3rd term abortion. China, in the other hand, draws the line at natural delivery. I would like to see the first but not at a position strongly against the current. Personally, I think I am responsible and clever enough to find it early when my wife is pregnant but we are not ready. As I see, none of these two lines deadly wrong or right. If one is evil, the other is only less evil.

And the reason that it’s so hard to move your line is mostly subjective. For example, as a boy grew up in country side, every year, there would be many families around my home to kill their hard raised pig to prepare for the spring festival. They had to hire butchers to do that and it’s my guilty pleasure to watch around as it’s total craft work to me. Then I was once around when one cattle was killed the same way. I noticed the seemingly tears in it’s eyes and never wanted to see it again as it’s simply sad for me. But I still enjoyed the pig butchering work. Objectively speaking, what’s the difference between killing a pig and an ox?

So, once late term abortion is allowed, the baby crown crushing might well be a medical practice you had to use due to the safety of the mother and limited medical resources at the time. A painful picture to imagine? Yes, I feel sick thinking it too. But have you seen amputation without anesthesia in old days? Anyway, I am no expert of this field and I think some members already gave link to discussions of this. In the end, nobody, neither Chinese nor American, enjoy brutal abortion/killing when a more humane way available.

/peace

 

Huh? How is it a myth? Any environment with a finite amount of resources (all of them) is potentially susceptible to overpopulation.

The science behind it is 1 - 1 = 0. That seems pretty solid to me.

 

It may not be a complete "myth," but I have seen data that indicates that Earth could support upwards of 15 billion people, more than double the population today.

 

The point is there is a carrying capacity above which certain numbers are just unsustainable - and that doesn't even take into account all of the x factors (fuel reserves, globabl warming, etc)

 

davidwu -- please understand that my comments weren't a condemnation of China or the Chinese people...but rather of humanity, as a whole.

 

This is the D & D haven't you realized science has no place here.

 

I've heard NFP mentioned a few times in various threads and don't know much about it. Could you post some links or more info about it? I just presumed it was the rythm method.

Humans are one of the few animals that have sex outside of mating times and I believe all of the animals that do are highly social animals. I think its pretty clear that sex plays an important social function among humans and that we are wired to have sex even without considering procreation.