Yes, Maris' record still stands. This truly and deeply pains me. It was the Summer of 1998 that catapulted MLB over the NBA in my pantheon of all time favorite sports, both of which fell short of football (both pro and college). However, after seeing McGwire's testimony on "Sportscenter" last Friday, the NBA quickly jumped back to the vaunted second spot on my list. McGwire made me fall in love with baseball. Now he's making me hate it and it's really tearing me up inside. Now I know how all of you feel when you get dumped. I feel like the MLB dumped me over the weekend and McGwire was the one to tell me, "It's over drapg."
Baseball is so tainted now. Ridiculous salaries, greedy owners, a horrible Commisioner, and now the steriod issue comes from out of the ashes...... Im a huge Astros fan, but baseball is drowning right now......
Does this matter? I guess it depends on whether you think steroids are 'cheating.' When an olympic runner tests positive they don't just adjust his time...he's disqualified (or should be). If they can prove steroid use during the time the records were being broken (though more than speculation), and steroids were illegal without a prescription, then the records should be removed. No asterix. White-out. Afterall...if they're illegal in the 'real world' and they're clearly designed to be performance enhancing, then they shouldn't need an 'official' ban from MLB.
I agree. The real problem is that proving steroid use in the past tense is a real b*tch. Are we to believe Canseco? I hope not.
it matters in the discussion Freak and I were having. we were talking about comparing talent in this very era. the effects of steroids on the numbers we've seen is absolutely relevant if you're comparing those players.
Had it been Brady Anderson who broke the record, then yes. However, it's not like McGwire was hitting 10 HRs a year then all of the sudden started hitting that many. He hit something like 30 his first half of his rookie season. On the steroid thing as a whole, I do agree that it sucks. However, I don't think it's nearly as bad as everyone else does. I'm not a big records guy, so I guess that has a lot to do with it. To me, if a team had won a World Series because of a bunch of juiced up players, it'd mean more to me. However, I can completely understand how people could feel differently. Especially those whose records are being broken. Regardless, Congress taking time away from much more important issues to have hearings about this pisses me off more than anything else.
cool. but I guess i'm not willing to accept your assumption that 'everybody was doing it.' Or even that, if everyone was doing it, it was therefore OK so the records should stand. And as an aside...I've never really understood the argument for a Maris asterix for an extra 8 game schedule. 8 out of 160 is hardly a huge difference...and we wouldn't be adjusting records for a 8 game injury...
In my mind, 61 is still the better accomplishment. After watching Big Mac tarnish his legacy last week I feel jaded regarding the whole situation. I would have admired him if he would have finally taken a stance and told the truth....maybe the truth is he didnt take any steroids, but by not saying anything IMO he tainted his legacy and will not be looked upon the same until he has a more defining answer.
Sometimes I think it's a good thing congress it taking its time with this. That way they're not frigging up more important things . Let's keep them occupied with the mundane rather than let them play with the more dangerous stuff.
The Maris argument would have been moot if he'd gotten 60 or 61 in the 154 games Ruth did. But Maris was sitting on 59 at the 154 game mark, I believe, and needed the 8 extra games that season to tie and pass the Babe.
staying healthy is part of the game. ask Griffey, who was being talked about as a threat to Aaron in prior years. it's not apples to apples...because you're literally defining a single season differently in the title, single season HR champ. i'm not sure "everyone was doing it." there's no way to know that. i'm not willing to throw out an entire era of accomplishments and pretend they didn't happen, though. and again...i don't know what the actual effect of steroids in terms of real hard numbers is.
baseball is the thing of childhood dreams. it is america personified and all this controversy is ruining the game. if these guys were real men and true heros, they would all come clean about what they have done for the sake of america's pastime. we will forgive. right now i feel helpless, like the following neil young song: There is a town in north ontario, With dream comfort memory to spare, And in my mind I still need a place to go, All my changes were there. Blue, blue windows behind the stars, Yellow moon on the rise, Big birds flying across the sky, Throwing shadows on our eyes. Leave us Helpless, helpless, helpless Baby can you hear me now? The chains are locked and tied across the door, Baby, sing with me somehow. Blue, blue windows behind the stars, Yellow moon on the rise, Big birds flying across the sky, Throwing shadows on our eyes. Leave us Helpless, helpless, helpless.
It's tough, 'cause if you start discounting the individual accolades, then do you also discount the team accomplishments? Personally, I USUALLY watch to see if anyone hits over 50 HRs in a season. If a guy does that, it's a great season. ESPECIALLY if he hits well for average as well.
I asked this question in the D & D thread on the same issue and never got an answer. During the time that McGwire and Sosa had their homerun race and when Bonds surpassed their records did MLB have an explicit policy banning steroids or other performance enhancing drugs that they might've been taking? If MLB didn't then I don't see how the 61 HR record can stand because under MLB rules that record was broken legitimately. As Madmax and some of the other posters have pointed out its difficult to compare records when they were set in different eras. For instance I believe there are some pitching records that can never be broken because starting pitchers used to pitch every game. For that matter rule changes like having a DH or changing the size of the mound have greatly impacted the game. Also baseball is the only major league sport where the dimensions of the playing area aren't consistent. Image what might've happened to the Astros pitching and offensive records if they had always played in Minute Maid Park instead of playing most of their history in the hitters nightmare of the Astrodome? Finally as nutrition, medicine and training knowledge changes atheletes are getting stronger and faster and playing longer without even using explicitly banned drugs. Do you then put an asterisks by every athletic record since the atheletes of today have better nutrition and training than they did in the 1950's? Records are records only because they fall within the proscribed rules of the institution setting them. So as long as according to MLB nothing Bonds or McGwire did was illegal then the records stands. Even if they institute rules now banning steroids I wouldn't strip them of those records since they were set legally acording to the rules then.
To know how much steroids played a difference.. it would take some work.. I'd like to see a break down of the location of every ball a player hit and how far over the fence it was... To see how many of the homeruns wouldn't have been homeruns if they were say a few feet shorter..
I don't measure it that way. I measure it this way. Since 1990 there have been 28 MVPS handed out, 14 of which are suspected Steroid users, and 9 of them are known users. I don't even think you need to look at the 2 or 3 feet. All you need to do is look at that MVP award for your answer. That is clear as day. It makes a difference. How could it not. The best player in all of baseball has been linked to steroids 50% of the last decade.
you can't really blame maris for hitting 61 in 6 more games. He played within the rules that were given to him. If he didn't have that 6 more games, maybe he wouldn't have gotten the record and Ruth's 60 still stands. But the bottome line is Maris played WITHIN the rules. On the other hand.... If McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds all used steroids or anything that enhanced their body/power, that's not playing within the rules. That's just basically cheating. How much of a player or even a man are you to just sit there and bask in the glow of a record you beat with the help of steroids or the like?
Is it true that babe ruth used to corked his bat and was actually caught. i think i read it on a baseball boards.
