Great Education Governor

Careful, you're edging toward contradicting yourself. If we can't deflect criticism of Bush by comparing him to Clinton, we sure can't deflect criticism of Clinton by comparing him to other Presidents. Not if we want to be consistent, I mean.

 

The original post said absolutely nothing about the fact that Bush made education a part of his presidential campaign. It gave the standing of Texas ninth graders and then implied it was Bush's fault, and then further implied that it would have something to do with his presidency. It seems to me that if you read the original post, the standing of Arkansas in '92 is perfectly valid to bring up. Don't change the basis of the argument when called on the carpet for posting something with no real substance.

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[This message has been edited by TraJ (edited December 07, 2000).]

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but when did the President or heck anyone in the federal government have much to do with high school education?

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I don't want to achieve immortality through my work... I want to achieve immortality by not dying. - Woody Allen

 

I halfway agree with you BK which is better than most times (j/k).

Actually, ANY president or governor promising to make education a priority is full of crap anyway. The education systems around the country are run in local districts. States and the federal government can provide general guidance and funding, but the job of deciding how to run a district is done locally.

The Texas education system has been a problem since Ross Perot stuck his nose into it years ago and invented things like testing for students and teachers and monetary incentives for administrators.

My parents, combined, have been involved with HISD as both teachers and administrators for over 70 years. The biggest issues we face have little to do with the job Dubya did in office. We don't face serious issues based on bilingual education either (certainly not in most areas in Texas outside of the valley and the San Antonio area). The biggest problems the districts face are:

Classroom overcrowding.
Loss or lack of TOTAL teachers let alone good one's.
Class time devoted less and less to ACTUAL study time.
Lack of parental involvement in a child's education.
Lack of funding for impoverished districts and schools.

This has very little to do with the state or federal government. It mostly has to do with local school boards and their decisions. The president or governer makes a nice lightning rod, but they are hardly the problem. Unfortunately, school board elections are the most ignored elections.

Now, the other half...

It is entirely common for people to think they're underpaid and that they work under a system that they could run better than the people currently in charge. It's especially prevalent, I'm sure, when the person in charge is a member of a political party that is consistently diametrically opposed to the labor union of the profession in question.

Generally, I totally agree. However, teachers are very unique. My father worked for the same company for 37 years and has NEVER made more than $37,000 per year, yet, he is asked to perform one of the most important jobs in our society - educate our children.

It would be one thing if they were averaging what most private industry workers are making but even garbage men make more money. Hell, I had a friend who worked for the post office as a mail carrier and made $32,000 by his 5th year!!!

Throwing money at the problem is not always the answer, but the only way you hire talented, wonderful educators is to pay them well. Otherwise, they will simply choose to work in the private sector like they are doing now.

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Mmmmmmm. Sacrelicious.

 

You have to remember that teachers get around 2 1/2 months vacation during the Summer, Spring Break, a few weeks off for Winter Break, every conceivable Banker holiday known to man (Flag Day?!). If you calculate all these days off I think it is fair to say the starting salary for a teacher is around 50K for a 52 working week period.

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"The Vice-President wants to take over Social Security like it is some kind of Federal program!" - George W. Bush

 

Teachers work about 185 days a year at the school. You also have to include two to three hours a day, on average, at home, preparing lesson plans and grading papers. So you can say they work 180 twelve hour days a year, or 2160 hours. Divide this by 52 weeks and you get 41 hours a week, or basically a normal work week for most. $37,000 a year is simply not enough for educating our children.

Now as for Bush, his so-called Texas Miracle is a scam. He is running as an Education Candidate. This is entirely based on TAAS test scores increasing across the state. Why are they rising? Because Bush mandated that schools will be held accountable for these scores, and decreed that the schools will do whatever necessary to get the scores up. So how did they do it? By tying administators incentive pay to TAAS scores. So what did the admins do? Forced teachers to "teach TAAS test materials only". That's right, forget about things like science, social studies, arts, etc. Some school districts have abandoned science entirely, taken money from other programs to teach TAAS test taking after hours, and actually encouraged lower scoring kids to stay home the week of the TAAS test.

And this is only the beginning. I can go on and on, but I do not have time now. Tomorrow, I will continue this discussion.

Bush as an Education president? It's a huge lie.


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Behad
Sergeant at Arms of the Clutch BBS

 

BeHad,

Bush supporters will never hear you. Their minds are made up and nothing (any logical explanation) will change their minds.


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'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'

 

Danilo: My father made his largest amount BY WORKING SUMMER SCHOOL. That argument is always made but, even with the summer vacation, my father NEVER had more than 6 weeks off in a row during the summer when not working summer school.

In addition, Behad is correct in that you have to count the hours and hours of overtime they work at home.

Besides, do you honestly believe that an entry-level programmer at a large computer company deserves more than a teacher with 20 years experience? who is more replaceable: a talented, experienced teacher or a programmer?

Granted, I'm just using the programmer as an example. No disrepsect intended whatsoever.

The fact is that if any business was plagued with problems losing good employees to other businesess because the other businesses paid more, that business would pay their employees more or risk serious problems with their company. This is the problem facing teachers. They can't make enough money as a teacher so they go elsewhere and we lose great teachers.

In fact, there is a significant shortage of teachers nationwide. They are even beginning to recruit teachers from other countries at this point because no one wants to work for half what they can get somewhere else.

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Mmmmmmm. Sacrelicious.

 

So, now its okay to call people "morons".
Listen Morons, your Moronic governor is going to make America look like a country full of Morons. How moronic that you morons would elect a moron for governor twice, and then for the moronic office of the presidency.

How could a moron like Bush run on education, when he has none. WHAT A MORON!!!!!!!! Later Morons. (except for the dems on this board)

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"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death?"

 

Ty_Webb, you completely missed the joke. I wasn't celebrating the fact that Gore carried DC; I was merely poking fun at the idea that he's from Tennessee. He attended prep school in DC when his dad was a Senator; he lived in DC for most of his adult life as a Congressman, Senator, and Vice President.

I'm a Democrat, and I even think it's hilarious that Gore claims to be from Tennessee! I mean, I voted for the guy, but how much more of a Beltway Insider can you get?


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[This message has been edited by wrath_of_khan (edited December 07, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by wrath_of_khan (edited December 07, 2000).]

 

I do.

What was the phrase that Bush repeated and repeated and repeated during his acceptance speech at the GOP convention? Hint: it implied that he was a better leader than Clinton and Gore and would be more successful in making progress on the issues he claimed were important-- education being one of them.

Dell Computer Corporation is consistently rated No.1 in customer satisfaction/technical support surveys. Ask a technical support phone technician at Dell what they think of their pay or the state of tech support at Dell.

It is entirely common for people to think they're underpaid and that they work under a system that they could run better than the people currently in charge. It's especially prevalent, I'm sure, when the person in charge is a member of a political party that is consistently diametrically opposed to the labor union of the profession in question.

Profession in question... I sound like Jesse Jackson.

 

Jeff,
I'm sorry to jump on this late but teachers do what they do because they want to teach not for the money. Your parents knew when they chose that field they would never be rich.
As someone else mentioned teachers do work less hours than others do. Yeh there are some out there who do go the extra mile but there are many others who use the tests straight from the teachers edition and use the same teaching plan for the last 15 years. Part of the problem is that teachers are in a union which doesn't allow the good ones to be rewarded (sorry to any union members out there but the bottom line is in a union, unless you get paid by a peice-meal system, is the hard worker and the lazy sob all get the same).
Yeah teachers deal with alot of stress at work but it is the field they chose. They don't do it for the money. They do it for the love of teaching or the hours or for some to be a sports coach.

 

Yes, and someday, we all hope to have the open-minded non-partisan approach that all the Democrats on this board (and in this country) have. It's only the Republicans who won't listen to reason.

As for TB3 and ZRB, you'd both better watch it. It takes me less than 90 seconds to remove someone's posting privileges and considerably less time than that for me to decide to do it.

[This message has been edited by BrianKagy (edited December 08, 2000).]

 

We can only hope Brian, we can only hope!

I figured that would get a rise out of someone and you didn't disappoint!




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'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'

 

Have I been go so long that you guys have forgotten what "getting a rise out of me" REALLY looks like?

 

More facts concerning our "Education Governor" (from the Parents Coalition of Texas website):

Only 41% of the school day is devoted to academic learning.
Class time lost is due to teaching the TAAS test.
TAAS test performance involves financial incentives for performing well.
60% of teachers say the TAAS test has not improved students' academic skills.
As TAAS scores rise, SAT scores decrease or remain flat due to the fact that the TAAS test is a "dumbed-down" exam.
54% of students failed the high school exit level TAAS test on first attempt even though the most rigorous elements were 8th grade level combined with 5th through 7th grade material.
TAAS test stresses an "egalitarian strategy," as equal outcomes or achievement replace equal opportunity.
53% of college freshman require remediation, yet only 5% are successfully remediated.
Texas students requiring remediation has grown 16% over the past three years.
74% of 4th graders cannot read proficiently.
82% of 8th graders are not proficient in math.
Remediation is extremely expensive: from $35 million in 1988-1989 biennium to 1998-1999 fiscal biennium of $180 million, a 514% increase.
The TAAS test neglects the intellectual development of gifted and highly motivated students in Texas.

So, Bush says he raised the standard for education and accountability in Texas schools by raising TAAS scores. Don't believe it.

Not included in this report are stories of admins asking lower scoring students to stay home the week of TAAS testing. Also, I personally know a family whose son is one of the top students in his school. They had a vacation planned the week of TAAS. The principle of the school called and begged them to change their vacation plans, then told her "there would be reprocussions" if he was not at school. My own kids' elementary school sent out a note at the first of the year saying how they were three kids short on the Math portion of the TAAS test from acheiving "exemplary" status. As a result, they were shortening the science class to 30 minutes to allow a "TAAS review period".

Why you ask? Because the administators of CCISD have their incentive pay tied to each school's performance on the TAAS.


The so-called Texas miracle is a lie.





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Behad
Sergeant at Arms of the Clutch BBS