Clutch, I assume this is a very emotional issue for you (obviously, eh? ). I guess you also feel that DREAMer is suggesting that he 'has the goods' on your faith. Surely living in Tx. you deal w/ this issue quite a bit (whether you're a jack-mormon or not, I have no idea). I think though that DREAMer has given you a great opportunity, if you care to take it (or if there are any other mormons that care to). He's merely discussed distinctions that he sees. Are those things untrue? Is there an extra element that can merge the LDS view w/ contemporary Christianity? Why, for example, did Christ come back? Moonies and Mormons both face this same issue... there's certainly an answer. I don't think that DREAMer has meant to insult you at all. There's a world of differences... though the 'common area' is far larger than we usually admit. ------------------ It just goes to show how skewed our priorities are when Mo Taylor makes millions of dollars while some high school teacher, that can actually rebound, scrapes to make a living. If Mo were half the power forward that Charles Barkley was, he'd be 3'2" and still board more than he does now.
I think it makes blacks look just as bad as it does Republicans. I also don't think diversity should have to always mean 'more liberal'. TheFreak PLEASE EXPLAIN? how does this make blacks 'look' bad Rocket River ------------------
I have found that Socially Black folx [like myself] tend to be more Conservative but economically very liberal. I beleive in helping folx. Rocket River ------------------
Clutch, Achebe hit it on the nose. Why attack me, instead of what I say? Attacking my reasons (ego) for saying what I do. Again, questioning my level of knowledge on religion. And, insinuating I learned all my information in some "Sunday school class". Telling me and others that I speak for Christ. C'mon a blatant personal shot. Then why not discount what I'm saying, or at least give your opinion on it? I'm all ears. In all seriousness, I would like to hear another side to the story.
River -- I don't think it makes blacks look bad that they vote 90+ percent for Democrats, but I do think it's a little strange. After all, every Republican, just like every Democrat, is different. It's one thing to have a certain issue that precludes you voting for a particular party (abortion, gun control, etc.), but I don't believe blacks all think the same on every issue. Yet, they all vote the same. As far as I know, blacks are the only group that vote that much alike. If you're going to say that Al Gore actually cares about blacks more than George Bush, I would beg to differ. But anyway, I was only responding to not only what Jeff said, but also other sentiment on the board blaming Republicans for not attracting blacks and other minorities. Why is it Republicans' fault for not attracting minorities, rather than the minorities' fault for all voting the same way (not that it's anyone's 'fault')? I actually don't want to get into a big thing about this, this thread may not be the place. I did start a thread about this a while ago, though, and the response was average, I believe. Most people brought up Republicans from the past who may have been racist to explain this, but those individuals really aren't relevant today for the most part (Pat Robertson, Buchanan, etc.). Cheers. ------------------ "It's a great idea. A girl's name for a guy and lots of theatrics. I wish I'd thought of that." --Alice Cooper discussing Marilyn Manson [This message has been edited by TheFreak (edited November 21, 2000).]
****! What I have learned so far is I would never tell Jeff what religion I belong to and never expose myself to the religious persecutions of Dreamer. Hang in there "C"!!! ------------------ Go Rockets and Comets! Stay in Houston!
TheFreak Black folx fare much better in the last eight years than in the previous 12 even in Texas where Bush Injecting more folx than a Doctor [Read Lethal Injection] In this election there was a feeling that we did not want another BUsh running the country. Bush had a clause in his house contract that said he could not sell to blacks many other issues came up that totally turned black voters from him and his party The Republicans all out attack on affirmative action. Bush's refusal to back the Hate Crimes bill after the Byrd killing. The Republicans backing mandatory sentence for crime [and drugs] that target low income folx [Why ounce of crack get you 10 yrs but a pound of Cocaine *WHICH BUSH DID* gets you a slap on the wrist?] MANY MANY MANY things have turned black votes from republicans in general and Bush in specific. and I think that the Main thing is. . . It seems black voter concerns and issues fall on deaf ears when speaking to republicans [You need money to get to those dinners] Rocket River ------------------
Jeff, forgive me if i am out of line but if Clutch did not post his religion here on the forum why did you? You through him right at a dude who is disrespecting the Mormon religion. I would not like it and I dont manage this site!! It did not seem courteous to me but in hindsight you 2 are friends so probably no chapped hides there. Topic change................. HUGE WIN IN INDIANA TONIGHT!!!! ------------------ Go Rockets and Comets! Stay in Houston!
Clutch went to Brigham Young. He has mentioned stuff about Mormonism in the past. He was the one defending the belief. I assume you haven't been around the boards very long because much of this is ancient history. Additionally, his defending of the Mormon faith in this thread came well before I said he was a Mormon. Clutch and I have known each other for a long time and I would never say something about him that I didn't feel had already been said by him or that he would be uncomfortable about. He is, first and foremost, my friend and I would not jeopardize that with something like a post on the BBS. If I was out of line, I am certain he would say so and I would be happy to apologize. ------------------ Time for a new cause. [This message has been edited by Jeff (edited November 21, 2000).]
One other thing... I broght up a variety of different religions. DREAMer singled out Mormonism and I had a feeling his comment that Mormons are not Christians would draw Clutch out. Ironically, we had just been discussing this recently. ------------------ Time for a new cause.
Speaking of mormons and BYU. Julie Stofer, the blonde who was kicked out of BYU for appearing on the Real World New Orleans will be in Houston as part of the Autorama this Sat. I don't know if she's going to speak or just sit there and sign autographs or what. For you wrestling fans, Mick Foley will be there on Sun. http://www.casionline.com/houston.html
DREAMer, I haven't had a chance today to continue this discussion. I'll leave the main defense of Mormonism to Clutch, but I find it interesting enough to address a couple of your points. First, I don't remember mention of your cat in The Bible, so that point is moot. Since the Book of Mormon is supposed to be an extension of the Bible, however, then the "Christ" that they worship is the same as in the rest of the Bible, regardless of whether or not you believe that the Bible should be amended. Okay, maybe I need to make my point clearer here. How do you know that before the New Testament was added to the Bible, that someone didn't edit out a similar quote forbidding new additions to the Bible. So many people have translated and edited the Bible to suit their beliefs over the last several centuries, that there could conceivably have been a verse forbidding new additions to the Old Testament. Wow. So because men are different from women, then they are supposed to be naturally superior also? And yes, the New Testament doesn't say change anything about the way women are viewed. Actually, when you marry, you are taking an oath to God that you will remain together "til death do you part". Divorce is breaking that oath and therefore, is a pretty serious matter for Christians. The fact that Mormons get divorced isn't really relevant. It just shows one more thing they have in common with the rest of the Christians. ------------------
LOL!!!! I'll be laughing about this one for about an hour... Rimbaud: That's a sad way to go about looking at life, but I get what you are saying. ------------------ Time for a new cause.
Julie, Do you mean, "never expose myself to a religious discussion with DREAMer."? Because, I can't see how anyone would consider my opinions to be persecution.
BTW Clarification: What is with Mormons and the Curse of Ham? I've heard alot about this. What is their interpretation of this? Rocket River Trying to separate Fact from Ficton ------------------
Perhaps because you have yet to post your supposed "opinions" as anything but facts, when you and I both know they are nothing but Anti-Mormon propaganda? Maybe that's it. How is falsely representing an entire faith with "they believe" or "Mormons believe" an opinion? I keep waiting for someone to ask DREAMer if he knows much about Mormonism, to which he'll clearly reply, "No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!" ------------------ NOTHING BUT .NET CLUTCHCITY.NET
Clutch, That is my opinion of what Mormons believe, and you have not even tried to debunk not a one of my statements. At least by arguing them you may be able to downgrade them from "fact" to "opinion", or even better, "false". And, I keep waiting for you to tell us all, point by point, that I am wrong and what Mormons really believe. Instead of posting insult after insult. If you would like to know where my source of knowledge comes from, then I'll tell you. 1.) 1st Hand Experience - No I've never been to a Mormon Church on a Sunday morning, but I did spend two weeks in the mountains of northern New Mexico with 3 Mormon families. I mean, I slept next to them, showered with them, ate, hiked, sweated, got haled on, etc. We had another Mormon family who lived on our block for the 12 years I lived there. I played ball with them, went over their house occasionally. I have continually said nothing but positive things about the people I know who just happen to practice the Mormon faith. 2.) A Book - I read a book (I forget the title, because my dork friend borrowed, then lost it). It was by an ex-Mormon Elder. Sure, you're not gonna hear much positive anything from someone who's left an organization like that, but you also can't tell me that none of what's in his book is true. 3.) My Father - As I've stated many times before my Dad used to be an Assembly of God minister. But, that doesn't tell the whole story of him. Before he became a Christian he wasn't such a "good guy". He sold drugs back in the 60s, he did drugs as well. He also was into things such as: Tarot cards, Astrology, Numerology, Mysticism, etc. He began to search for a belief/religion that he could really believe in. He studied many religions (Mormonism being one of them), finally choosing a Pentecostalist view of Christianity. He has read the Book of Mormon, and probably knows more about Mormonism, than any non-Elder in the church of Mormonism. So, to condense my resources for my knowledge about the Church of Latter Day Saints: Personal experience, an extensive book by someone who was heavily involved in the faith, and a person who has read the Book of Mormon and studied the religion. So, no I haven't read the Book of Mormon, one day I will. And, no I haven't done extensive research on the religion, but I gain my knowledge from people who have. Now, I'm going to state another thing about Mormons. This one, I'm not as sure about as the others. So, take it with a grain of salt. I believe, (Again, not 100% sure on this one. Actually, it's closer to 50%), that Mormons are not allowed to argue their beliefs with non-Mormons. I can't remember where I heard this, hence my uncertainty. But, I can think of no other reason why a Mormon would not stand up for their beliefs.
DREAMer: I have these sorts of conversations w/ my friends all of the time, and they merely tell me that I'm misinformed (and why) or else they explain it away in some other manner. Perhaps the fact that I'm an atheist makes me less dangerous in these conversations (i.e. rather than a southern baptist asking these questions after their conference a few years ago). I don't know why Clutch is playing the wounded victim, it must be the influence of all of these democrats on the board. I'm having thanksgiving w/ some mormons... I'll ask your questions for you. ------------------ It just goes to show how skewed our priorities are when Mo Taylor makes millions of dollars while some high school teacher, that can actually rebound, scrapes to make a living. If Mo were half the power forward that Charles Barkley was, he'd be 3'2" and still board more than he does now.
