Amercia needs to withdraw its support from Israel...

And who exactly would you prefer to impose their will on the rest of the world? China? Russia?

I'll take the USA any day of the week.



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Maybe all the rulers are wrong.
Current Rocket's Salary & Contract Info

 

Stone Cold, I guess my sarcasm was lost on you. I agree that the US should be involved. But I don't think its about oil. I know some other Mideast contries are oil-rich but I don't think Israel is one of them. Israel probably wouldn't need military assistance, anyway. Right now they are fighting against rock-throwing Palestinians.

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"Don't blame me. I think I voted for Gore."
-Florida bumpersticker

 

Dream34 - you can't be serious. Both sides of the story? Did you actually read this article? It is certainly informative and well written but it is explicitly written by a Moslem and is blatantly biased.

"...the Israeli massacres of unarmed Palestinian civilians, the destruction of infrastructure through bombing...",

"The weapons they are using to kill children in Palestine were manufactured here."

The author makes both of the above references to Israeli perpetrated violence and condemns it, without making a single reference to the unspeakable acts of terrorism enacted by some Palestinians.

I'm not arguing that Israel does not committ the above actions, because they do, but for you Dream34, to present this article as representing "both sides of the story" is wrong.

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Maybe all the rulers are wrong.
Current Rocket's Salary & Contract Info

 

The state of Israel is a very small part of the Middle East. Israel is the ONLY place where peace is exchanged for land. Isn't it usually peace exchanged for peace? My opinions on this issue will obviously be lopsided, but people are missing many things.

The Palestinians have been throwing rocks for many years, on and off. Usually more when there are peace talks. I witnessed it myself last year, where brand new roads had to be built so that some of my relatives (2nd cousins) would be able to get to their homes without having rocks thrown at them.

Israel's policy has NEVER been to fire first. Palestinian teenagers are actually taken out of school to taunt the Israeli soldiers, and stand on the front line. The Israeli orders have different "levels" of offense, and different retaliation for each type of offense. As the teenagers are on the front line, usually Palestinian soldiers (armed) back them up. Occassionally, an Israeli soldier can get a little frantic, but it is far from the Israeli policy.

The State of Israel was awarded after WWII for the actions taken against them. Palestinians weren't thrilled then. They actually had an offer from Israel for land that would've included Israel then, but the DECLINED. If a Palestinian land is needed, why can it not be taken from the other 95% of the Middle East, dominated by Arabs, rather than the 5% Israeli part? Peace for Peace. Not for Land.

To put it all in context, those of us who live in Houston, what would you think if The President (whover it may be) was going to give Texas to Mexico? Or maybe the Northeast to Canada?

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The Serious Police are watching.
Follow the rules or be assimilated.
Shandon is underrated.

 

My years of travel, work and living lead me to these simplified conclusions:

1. Wars built on religious ferver take centuries of death to reach an end.

2. Death as revenge never ends, but remains cyclic as one side attempts to keep score for their own loss.

3. The Middle East "conflicts" are a religious-based revenge cycle of death, and thus have the virtue of being not only impassioned but eternal.

4. US Media controls what we "learn" of worldwide conflicts, depending on who their listeners/readers/viewers/owners are.

5. There are more Jews than Moslems in the USA, although the difference is getting narrower each decade.

6. US Media would never endorse a verbal media attack on Israel.

7. US Media would never endorse open media support of Palestine (or Jordan,or Egypt, or Iraq, or Iran, etc...).

8. The US attempts to circumvent itself into foreign affairs that it may have a deep abiding interest in, but which it has no real intrinsic ownership or understanding. The desire to help others in need does not replace our responsibility to recognize when we have no actual ability to do so.

9. The shortest length of time for any conflict to end can be measured by the age of the current generation carrying the guns.

10. The death of a child is as soulfully heartwrenching for any arab as it is for any hebrew.


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very nicely put oielpere

thats the one thing that bugs me most, is us coverage of not only this event, but all similar events. it is ALWAYS horrendously skewed. is is any wonder that this story never even broke cnn until almost a week after it had already started?
real news is a little easier to access now, because you can get international journals and european and arab papers and such.
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the palestinians need the land so they can live there. and they want/need to protect their holy site. you dont think they should be allowed to safely attend their holy places of worship?
israel never fires first.... theres a stupid concept.
they might not have technically thrown the first punch, but they sure provoked it. tell me honestly, would all the violence going on at the moment be as it is if sharon had not visited al-aqsa with 1000 israeli riot troops and announced plans to take it over?
also, answer this, why is the israeli government so intent on digging up all the ground beneath the muslim holy site of al-aqsa mosque????? "architectural artifacts" my butt..... they know if they keep digging, it will eventually make the mosque cave in. its the same thing as going and just burning it to the ground (like they've tried in the past) just a little more covert.
i think the israelis should be THANKFUL the palestinians are only armed with stones. imagine if the palestinians even had ONE FOURTH of the firepower israel had....
then maybe israel would think a little harder before torturing and killing innocent palestinians

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people who are related dont have to look alike. my mom and dad dont resemble each other at all

 

Let me preface my post by saying that this is an issue that is very important to me and I do not think one can fully comprehend it without seeing the situation firsthand. I got the opportunity to check things out in person about this time last year and it really put things into perspective.

At this point last year, and even moreso this year, Jerusalem and other cities were/are basically just Israeli military checkpoints. Armed soldiers patrol the streets and Muslims cannot enter the Al-Aqsa mosque without passing through metal detectors. I have witnessed firsthand the taunting these unarmed civilians take, and many are not allowed to enter their place of worship for no reason. What?!?! They have to pass through checkpoints just to get into their mosque!?! You imagine taking that crap going to your local churches. You imagine a transformation of Houston into a military checkpoint with foreign armed soldiers patrolling your hometown. Don't tell me that you wouldn't want them out. I have also seen the sites of where Palestinian homes once stood but had been bulldozed over long ago. Those residents now live in refugee camps.

As far as unfair coverage from the media, let me say that there is an extremely powerful Jewish lobby in the United States. The Muslim influence on this nation's politics is, to say the least, weak.

As far as the charge that Palestinians were over-reacting to the visit by an Israeli leader to mosques in Jerusalem, these were deliberately provocative intrusions. Likud leader Ariel Sharon was the man responsible for many massacres of unarmed Palestinians in 1982. His action was designed to demonstrate Israel's "sovereignty" over Jerusalem.

Rock throwing has always been common in demonstrations and is generally resisted by rubber bullets etc. Now they're pulling out the firearms and packing heat on a bunch of rock throwers?! People have the right to resist occupation, especially by demonstrating on behalf of their human and national rights.

As for the so-called 95%-5% proposal, what good is it when Israel is importing Jewish settlers to set up illegal armed settlements in the heart of Palestinian territory? Why can Israeli's bring in Jews from all across the globe but Palestinians are not allowed the right of return?

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242:
1. Israel must withdraw from territories occupied in 1967.
2. All states in the region will live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries.

The Palestinian obligations under 242 were fulfilled many years ago. The State of Israel in its 1967 borders were recognized by the PLO. However, the Israeli obligation, withdrawal from the occupied territories, has gone unfulfilled. Israel is bound by international law to withdraw from all territories occupied in 1967, including Jerusalem. That Jerusalem is included in the territories referred to in 242 is specifically stressed in Security Council Resolution 496 which "reaffirms the overriding necessity to end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem." 242 is a commitment to the Palestinians and they have carried out their part of the bargain. Israel has not.

Under the terms of the Fourth Geneva Convention, Israel is obliged to defend the civilian population living under its control. Its crystal clear that the massacre of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli military has been a complete violation of this obligation, and Israel has also failed to protect the Palestinian civilians from the heavily-armed Jewish settlers it introduced into the occupied territories. Israel again has failed to reach their end of past agreements. Big surprise.

As far as the claim from a poster on this thread that Palestinian youth are taken out of school for demonstrations etc, one will see that historically, youth have always been at the forefront of uprisings against opression. Demonstrations and stone-throwing by youth in no way justifies Israel's massacre of them any more than southern governors in turning dogs on youth involved in the American civil rights movement.

Lastly, I want to adress the claim that Palestinian deaths have come in the course of the crossfire (cough, cough, Madeline Albright). The following is an exact quote from a statement given under oath by Mr. Talal Abu Rahma, photographer for France 2 television who filmed the murder of 12 year old Mohammed Al-Durah, made at the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights on October 3, 2000:

"Then, it was quite clear for me that shooting was towards the child Mohammed and his father from the opposite direction to them. Intensive and intermittent shooting was directed at the two, and the two outposts were not a source of shooting, as shooting from inside these outposts had stopped after the first 5 minutes, and the child and his father were not injured then. Injuring and killing took place during the following 45 minutes. I can assert that shooting at the child Mohammed and his father Jamal came from the above - mentioned Israeli military outpost, as it was the only place from which shooting at the child and his father was possible. So, by logic and nature, my long experience in covering hot incidents and violent clashes, and my ability to distinguish sounds of shooting, I can confirm that the child was intentionally and in cold blood shot dead and his father injured by the Israeli army."

Sadly, biased American media continued to misreport the incident.

Proposals from Israel and the U.S. at Camp David would have left Israel in possession of large chunks of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, including the old city.

In conclusion, it is Israeli tanks and armored vehicles that are surrounding Palestinian villages, camps and cities. Israeli Apache gun ships are firing missiles at Palestinian protestors and homes. It is Israel that is setting up illegal armed settlements. The homes that are being demolished belong to the Palestinians, not the Israelis. It is Israel that has closed down the Palestinian airport at Gaza, preventing the transport of badly needed medical supplies. Barak's proposals neglect Palestinian right of return and Israel still hasn't stayed by their side of 242. Oh and BTW, 4 billion of our tax dollars are sent to Israel annually for aid. Never mind the fact that it is all used to murder a harmless people.

Those are the facts, you make your decision.

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Mo money, Mo problems...

[This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited November 22, 2000).]

 

Achebe:
I don't know if I've ever truly had complete sympathy for Palestinians (only b/c my muslim friends all seem to be pretty damn anti-semitic). But could someone please tell me how throwing rocks at settlers and soldiers is anything but a violent act?


ok, im sorry to say this, but this is the single most ignorant thing i have EVER heard in my life.
do you know WHY they were throwing rocks and stuff? THEY HAD NO OTHER OPTION.
sharone visited masjid al aqsa with ONE THOUSAND israeli troops in riot gear during muslim prayers. he said he was simply visiting the site. the jews (israelis) have been trying to burn this mosque down for quite some time. it is the third holiest muslim site. now, when these one thousand troops in riot gear show up to your place of worship with a guy responsible for massacring arabs in the early 80's what do you expect??
go read some news articles man, the israelis were shooting ANTI TANK MISSILES, opening fire with automatic weapons on the palestinians who had nothing BUT rocks. and they are somehow the violent ones?????
and you"re still confused as to why your muslim friends are a little anti semetic?
Im gonna assume for a second that your christian. what if a bunch of buddhists started shooting missiles and firing automatic weapons at the vatican?
how would you feel then? especially if those same people opening fire are the ones responsible for you not having a standing army. you're resorted to throwing stones. how are you gonna feel about those people then?




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you are to be praised by gods and revered as women.

 

davo says:
Now I may be wrong, but I thought the Jewish people were awarded the state of Israel as part compensation for the horrors they endured during the second world war. I believe this was done at the expense of the state of Palestine, which explains the ongoing hostilities. Protecting these Jewish people from further persecution is seen, rightly or wrongly as a high priority by the USA.

-----someone please tell me how to do that quote thing
but anyway, dont you find it ironic, that these very same jews are doing those exact same things to the palestinians now?
YES you read that right. the jews are terrorizing the palestinians just as they were terrorized during the holcaust.
you dont believe me? its true. they're killing little kids, massacring innocent people with 100 times the firepower. the first couple of weeks of this, EIGHTY palestinians dead. israelis? NOT a SINGLE ONE.
as for someone who said the palestinians are carrying out terrorist acts themselves. no crap!!!!! what do you expect them to do??????? they're people are being massacred and TORTURED (you want references for that? email me, ill be happy to send them along) they have NOTHING to fight back with. so occassionally theres a suicide bombing or something that might injure a few israelis. big whoop compared to whats happening to the palestinians.
is it ok for them to kill little 12 year old boys and massacre the muslims and take away their land just because they suffered grave injustices over 50 years ago?
what happend in wwII was TERRIBLE. it was one of the worst things that ever happened, but turning around and doing the same thing to another group of people will never solve it.
also, arafat is a gimp. he is just another US puppet. he's not doing jack. and the little he has tried to do, israel wont agree to. why did israel reject a UN investigation into the intifida? because they were WRONG and they know it.
why wont the us help israel? they have a history of anti muslim policy and the govt is bought out by the jews anyway.

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you are to be praised by gods and revered as women.

 

You click on the "reply with quote button, contained right next to the "edit messages" button.

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"Don't blame me. I think I voted for Gore."
-Florida bumpersticker

 

Aren't some of the biggest corporations in the United States owned by Jews? McDonalds, Coke, Disney-ABC, NBC, etc...all these companies and more are owned by Jews I think. The Amercian economy is highly dependent on Jewish investments. This is the main reason US supports Israel. I also think US needs to mind its own business, and try to stay out of other countries business. While I agree the world needs some policing, why is it always America that has to butt in everywhere? If it needs to butt in, the least they can do is remain neutral. I guess they havent learned anything from the two World Wars, Vietnam, and Korea. Now they are butting in in the Middle East, and soon they will pry their way in Kashmir. This flashpoint between India and Pakistan does not need any American interference. And America wont interfere here like they do in Israel. Why? Because its own interest arent at stake. All this bullsh!t about America doing whats right is a major misconception. The United States has and always will do whatever it takes to protect its own financial interests. Even if it involves provking violence directly or indirectly.

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I did not travel the world like some of you and I am of course not very objective but I would comment on some of what you said:
1.Jamma34-"they're killing little kids, massacring innocent people with 100 times the firepower. the first couple of weeks of this, EIGHTY palestinians dead. israelis? NOT a SINGLE ONE"
first of all after two month of this 250 palestinians and 35 israelies died, the fire power you are talking about is not used ageinst teens in riots but ageinst "hamas" "tanzim" and "islamic jihad" activists-the pepole who are responsible for things like the bombing in hedera yestarday, did any one throw a stone that weigh a killo or more at your head, let me tell you those stones can kill (my own cousin 21 years old
was injured by a stone and was in the hospital for a week).
"also, arafat is a gimp. he is just another US puppet. he's not doing jack"-you are wrong-Arafat is responsible for this intifada he is not a puppet he is a terrorist and as we now know not a peace for partner he doesnot take care of his pepole he set up a corrupt goverment that take all of the money that is given to him by the world.
"the palestinians need the land so they can live there. and they want/need to protect their holy site. you dont think they should be allowed to safely attend their holy places of worship?" aren't us israelis entitled to these same rights-ariel sharon which I realy don't like personaly visited al aqsa that was build on the ruins of "beit hamikdash" where acording to jewish belive was god's "home" this is a part of israel and he as a israeli citizen has the right to visit there after coordination with the israeli police he used that right and arafat used it as an excuse for these riots and wanted to gain the world sympathy and use it in negotiation but he wanted to much and now is starting to lose control over his own pepole and forces. sharon went up there with 1000 policeman because he would have been hurt if he went there with less.
I dont know when were you in jerusalem but I was there in the summer and I can tell you that the digs you are talking about are not going to cave al aqsa in.
If the palestinians had "ONE FOURTH" of our power meaning- a full armed small army then this conflict would have been over already because than the IDF would have used all of it's power and not 4 gun-ship helicopter like he did so far.
Thacabbage-
"Jerusalem and other cities were/are basically just Israeli military checkpoints" israeli soldiers must patrol the cities if they havent I would not have been able to write this post now because me and my fellow israelies would probebly die in a bus explosion or a thing of that sort.
"You imagine taking that crap going to your local churches. You imagine a transformation of Houston into a military checkpoint with foreign armed soldiers patrolling your hometown" can you imagine not letting your kids go out of the house because you are afreid that they will be killed in a mall or a bus station?
the houses that were bulldozed are houses that were illegaly built or was a terrorist house.
"Now they're pulling out the firearms and packing heat on a bunch of rock throwers?! "
no they are pulling out there fire arms to shho at the palastinian "police" man that hide behind rock throwers and shot at isrelies.
as far as the UN issue-give me a brake- how many arabs and muslem contryies are there how many jewish countries are there?
why wasn't the UN sent to calm down the 92 LA riots (and I want a UN investigation on the 2pac shooting in las vegas on 95)
"by Mr. Talal Abu Rahma" by the name you could tell he is a muslem and i dont expect him to be objective.


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The holy land #1 rocket fan

 

israeli rocket,
you're eloquent, and everything you say sounds good on the surface. however, you still ignore a lot of HUGE points.
first, all this "crap" the israelis are going through over there. tell me honestly, would any of this ever be an issue if the israeli's just gave the palestinians what is rightfully their's in accordance to that resolution??? the answer, my friend, is NO. if the govt just did what they were supposed to, and stopped intentionally provoking the palestinians, this is not an issue.

you say sharon needed troops to visit al aqsa or he would have been killed. why was he there in the first place???????? sure as hell not to "visit" if that was the case he wouldnt have been telling the palestinians that he was going to take over alaqsa and kick the muslims out!!!!!!!!

and no, im not going to give you a break on the un issue. answer my question: is it right for the jews to turn around and do the exact same thing that was done to them to another group of people?
in fact, the jews of all people should be the MOST sympathetic to the palestinians and be HAPPY to give them their land back.
youre only answer is "look at how many muslim countries there are"
i dont see how that in ANY way justifies terrorizing palestinains!!!!!
israeli rocket, i understand, you have a lot of close ties, and your cousin was injured. and for that im sorry. i dont think it should be going on like this. but you need to take 2 steps back and look at the bigger picture.

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people who are related dont have to look alike. my mom and dad dont resemble each other at all

 

According to the terms of 242, they shouldn't even be there. Of course a formal land agreement to a whole nation of people means nothing, right? They should just live in Israeli military occupation, right?

Illegaly built!?!? So now it's illegal for them to build houses upon their own land? The only thing illegal are the Jewish settlements. Please cut the "terrorist" crap. It's war over there right now. When Israelis kill Palestinians they're doing it in self defense, but when Palestinians fight for liberty they are terrorists.

Israel didn't have to agree to these terms, now did they?

I see absolutely no relevance between the two. We're talking about an international promise to a country here, and you're bringing up L.A. riots. What in the world does the United Nations have anything to do with riots in Los Angeles? As far as the 2pac shooting, I'm even more confused.

Let's completely discredit a statement under oath because "you could tell he is a muslem.

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Mo money, Mo problems...

 

WWI
WWII

I guess we should've kept our noses out of those too? Stuff happening way over in Europe - that doesn't concern us!


One word - Vietnam.



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My dream job is to be a Houston Rockets towel boy.