The "Intent of the Voters" is what's important (unless they're in the military)

I thought it was 4700 ballots.

 

TheFreak,

Did you seriously expect them to be charitable about it?


Mango

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LOL... You didn't seem sympathetic to voters who's votes aren't getting counted because the ballot was punched at an angle or not quite hard enough. Yet now that it affects Bush voters, you gripe?

What happened to "deadlines and the law are the most important thing". One law is that the votes must be postmarked by the 7th. Do you now think the laws aren't quite so important?


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Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!

 

shanna,

The Republicans did not seem to complain about this as loudly as the Democrats did about their situation a few weeks back.

If you have a link to a speech by a major Republican figure anguishing about the disallowed military votes, please provide it.


Mango

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Test Your NBA Trade Ideas
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2. Use clear wording for new threads.
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At a midafternoon news conference Saturday in Austin, Texas, Karen Hughes, Bush’s communications director, complained of a “targeted effort by the Democratic Party to throw out as many as a third of the overseas ballots received since Election Day, many of them from the men and women of our armed services who are serving the cause of freedom throughout the world.”"


Straight from the Bush campaign. Happy?

Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.com/news/491164.asp

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Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!

[This message has been edited by shanna (edited November 19, 2000).]

 

Yes I am very happy with that link. Another excerpt from that same link:

"........Meanwhile, spokesmen for the Bush campaign said Republicans are troubled about a report in The Miami Herald that felons, who are barred from voting by Florida law, cast absentee ballots in Broward and Miami-Dade counties. The majority of them, 32, were Democrats, according to the newspaper......"

Then here is the story from the Miami Herald: http://www.herald.com/

Saturday, November 18, 2000, in the Miami Herald


At least 39 felons cast illegal votes
S. Florida rolls compared to databases
BY DAVID KIDWELL AND LISA ARTHUR
dkidwell@herald.com


At least 39 felons -- mostly Democrats -- illegally cast absentee ballots in Broward and Miami-Dade counties in the Nov. 7 elections, according to a Herald analysis of absentee votes in those counties.

Their convictions range from murder and rape to drunk driving and passing bad checks. One is on the state's registry of sexual offenders. Three were registered under Social Security numbers different from those on their criminal records. One is even a poll worker.

``I've been voting ever since voting has been voting,'' said Cheryl Elaine Jones, 50, of Homestead, who has a 15-year-old conviction for dealing cocaine. ``I'm a poll worker. I feel like I'm a one-time felon, and that was years ago. I haven't been in trouble since. I think that all should be thrown out.''

Jones was among 19 felons in Miami-Dade and 20 in Broward who have not had their voting rights reinstated by the Florida Office of Executive Clemency but voted Nov. 7. It is illegal for felons to vote, unless they petition the state to have their rights restored.

Although they make up only a tiny number of the 104,865 absentee ballots cast in Broward and Miami-Dade counties, if felons cast illegal votes in the same percentages at the polls it could amount to more than 470 illegal ballots locally and more than 2,000 statewide.

``I don't think that's an unfair analysis,'' said David Leahy, Miami-Dade supervisor of elections. ``Given the amount of inaccuracies in these databases, I can't say I'm surprised.''

Like other election officials around the state, Leahy matches databases of felons against the voter rolls to eliminate illegal voters. Elections officials statewide say they have made enormous advances to scrub the voter rolls clean of felons in the past two years, since Miami's tainted mayoral election made national news.

Leahy said his office alone has eliminated thousands of felons from the registration rolls since 1998.

``It doesn't please me there is even one left, but I'm pleased we are trying the best we can,'' he said.

Janet Keens, director of the Office of Executive Clemency in Tallahassee, was troubled to find ex-convicts voted.

``I don't know how this could happen now,'' Keens said. ``They show up on my database as felons. These people should not have been allowed to vote.''

Florida is one of just 14 states banning felons from the ballot box, a Civil War-era provision which has come under repeated attacks by Democratic congressional leaders and civil rights groups as discriminatory against blacks. In September, eight inmates backed by a New York civil rights center filed a federal lawsuit challenging the law.

To find felony voters, The Herald compared a list of all absentee voters in both counties to a Department of Corrections database, then verified each conviction in court records and a Florida Department of Law Enforcement database.

Oscar Meza, 44, of Miami, voted absentee despite being sentenced to five years in prison for rape, kidnapping and lewd and lascivious assault on a child in 1993.

Meza is on the FDLE's list of sexual offenders and remains on probation. He could not be reached. He was the only Republican on the list from Miami-Dade. There were three Republicans in Broward. The vast majority of felons casting illegal ballots were Democrats -- 32 of 39. There were three independents.

Doreen John, 22, of Miami, said she thinks it's unfair to keep ex-convicts from voting. She was sentenced to 5 1/2 years in prison in 1994 on convictions for armed robbery, kidnapping, burglary and carrying a concealed weapon. She cast a ballot Nov. 7.

``Before I got locked up, I voted,'' she said. ``I didn't know I couldn't vote now. I don't think that's fair. If you did something in the past, that should have nothing to do with it.''

Several of the felons interviewed insisted they petitioned to have their rights restored, although the clemency office -- which is solely responsible for granting such privileges -- had no record of it.

Cardell Osborne, 42, of Fort Lauderdale, who served six months in the Broward County Jail for felony cocaine possession in 1992, said he voted in the 1996 presidential election after his rights were reinstated.

``Why did they send me a voter's registration card if I don't have the right to vote?'' he said. ``The state is lying if they say I am not cleared.''

Willie Dan Hartley, 70, of Homestead, said he petitioned for his rights 25 years ago, shortly after his release on convictions for aggravated assault in 1973 and 1967.

``Man, that's a long time ago, that's over with,'' he said. ``I've been voting ever since then.''

Herald database editor Geoff Dougherty contributed to this report.

---------------------------------------------

So the Democrats will do whatever it takes to void the votes of military personnel, yet didn't say anything about the felons voting for them?



Mango

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Test Your NBA Trade Ideas
1. Put new topics in the proper forum.
Things happening in the rest of the NBA
2. Use clear wording for new threads.
3. No duplicate threads
4. Conduct yourself as an adult.
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Donate Blood or be assimilated!

 

Mango,

don't give felons such a hard time. Dubya didn't when he let them get their guns back in Tx..





[This message has been edited by Achebe (edited November 19, 2000).]

 

The Freak,

Did you actually read the article you posted? You presented the Republican accusations, but you didn't include the Democrat denial:

"But the Gore campaign said it was local, elected Florida elections officials who decided whether or not to accept these ballots."

I have also heard this reported on ABC Nightly News and read it in local Florida papers.

“'Both sides had observers there and it’s a very bipartisan process,' Hattaway said. He said he knew of no Democratic strategy to challenge the overseas ballots."

Again, this has been confirmed by numerous statements by election officials on the news stations here in Florida.

"According to MSNBC, 2,206 absentee ballots were accepted while 1,420 were rejected because they lacked proper postmarks, signatures or envelopes."

It's odd how you complain that improperly punching a ballot is a sign of stupidity so severe that it requires a forfeiture of your voting rights, but forgetting to sign or have someone "witness" your signature can't be deemed moronic.

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I'm actually willing to say those overseas votes shouldn't count. They weren't postmarked like they were supposed to be, fine. I just thought people like you might be a little upset about it, seeing as how you're so concerned about "the true intent of the voters". Apparently it didn't bother anyone though. Interesting.

I'm actually the opposite. If those votes are legitimate, I do think they should count. Again, I think the specific technicality of the law is less important than the intent of the voter. Now, if the votes were cast after Nov 7th, I think it's a different issue. Then you have people who are specifically voting because they know the stakes. But those that were postmarked and had signature problems and such -- I think those should be counted.

First of all, someone who's vote doesn't get counted because they can't punch a hole has nobody but themself to blame. On the other hand, someone who's ballot didn't get postmarked by no fault of their own, is a far different story.

Not true. The whole "Hanging Chad" issue, which is the primary problem being solved in the manual count, is not the fault of the voter. First of all, the chad might just not fall off on a normal punch if it wasn't punched fast enough or whatever. Second, a hanging-chad is a legal vote. The fact that a legal vote is not counted by the machine is not the fault of the voter. The situation is basically the same. Due to faults in the system (counting process or mail system), people who legitimately voted may not be getting counted.



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Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!

 

Speaking of the manual recount vs. machine recount thing, Business Week reports that in tests the machine counters were accurate to within 6 votes in 10 million (even with "hanging chads")

In Florida, though, those machine counts are supposedly off by hundreds (possibly thousands) of votes out of five or six million total. That seems way out of line with the standard deviation.

At least Harris Couty voters won't have to worry about it anymore. I saw in the Chron that Harris County is going to a completely computerized voting system. Hand counts won't even be possible in Harris County in the future. Perhaps it won't be too long before all counties get to that point.

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Houston Sports Board
The Anti-Bud Adams Page

[This message has been edited by mrpaige (edited November 19, 2000).]

 

Why is it that the Democrats dont want to count the overseas votes?
The democrats sent out a FIVE page memo to the local counties with different ways to discard the overseas ballots.
If you know about the military, you will know that when you fill out a ballot, you dont run it to a post office. You hand it to your superior, who in turn sends it in. Military mail, DOES NOT have a postmark. It has a APO or FPO stamp. In the FLORIDA law it says if the ballot has a STAMP or POSTMARK then the ballot MUST be counted. Yet, the democrats dont want them counted.

The republicans have said Scotch tape has been found on the back of some Ballots holding chads over the Bush spot.
Judge Burton, a democrat, admitted there were some scotch taped ballots.
The democrats say that the process is not arbitrary. Yet, on Thursday in Broward county there were 283 CHADS found on the floor. Apparently it raised enough concern, for the LOCAL POLICE to collect them. Funny how you dont hear that from the Dems.

Bush ballots are apparently appearing inside Gore piles of ballots. That has ALSO been proven by Judge Burton, when he said 'some'.
The whole process is a joke. Broward and Dade counties at first didnt want to count the ballots again. Yet the democrats threatened legal action if they didnt. Next thing you know, Gore isnt getting the votes he thought he would so NOW they change the rules to include PREGNANT and dimpled chads. And now, we find out that the democrats dont want to count the overseas ballots that were CORRECTLY filled out? I cant believe that the democrats on this board find nothing wrong with this.

I guess that what Gore is saying is that 'ALL VOTES COUNT....AS LONG AS THEY ARE FOR ME'
In all three of the counties he is recounting, the canvassing boards make the final judgement. In all three counties they are democratic. Overall, there is 8 Dems and 1 Rep.

I guess what matters the most is WHO is counting the votes. At least that is what GORE is saying. WHich brings up THIS quote:

"The People would cast a vote, decide NOTHING. The people who COUNT the vote decide EVERYTHING" ---- Josef Stalin

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"Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"

 

Even on the machine recount, the vote changed by about 1400 in 6 million. Either they use different machines in Florida or that Business Week guy doesn't know what he is taking about. It probably changed more than that because 1400 was the net gain for Gore. That is the statistical anomaly in this situation. If the errors were random, they should have approximately evened out. Although one would have to do some statistical analysis to be sure, this result suggests systematic error. Given that much more attention/supervision was probably paid to the process during the second count, this suggests that there may have been some systematic cheating by Bush people during the first count.

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Look, this is plain and simple: The absentees not counted did not have a legible post mark on them!

It is as simple as that! No date on them! So any blow-joe AFTER the election could fill it out and send it in. Can you say FRAUD? AND guess who threw out MOST of the ballots? BANANA REPUBLICANS!

Also, more than 300 absentees were thrown out of Palm-Beach!

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THE "W" STANDS FOR WASTED

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What about the absentee ballots that did not have the voter reg #'s on them that were later (by the counters) added to make them legit?

I heard about this, but have no source, does anyone know anything about this?

In other words, I do not know the validity of said statement.

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EZLN

 

Danillo
Look at this PLAIN AND SIMPLE: Military mail doesnt NEED a postmark to be delivered. Even in the FLorida Law it says that if a ballot has a APO or FPO stamp that is as good as a postmark.

This is what is happening. Bush got around 60% of the overseas ballots. Gore hasnt gotten the turnaround he thought he would in Manual recounts. So they change the rules, Cheat alittle to get some more Gore votes. Then they throw out overseas ballots that have been going 60% for Bush. Gore knows if Bush picks up enough votes to get 2000 ahead, that it would be VERY hard to catch him. That is why you see the dems fighting over ALLOWING Pregnant chads, yet throwing out Absentee votes that arent going there way.
Gore wants to be Commander-in-Chief yet he doesnt want to count there votes?!

And you said that the republicans are the ones throwing out the absentee ballots? Are you crazy? Everyone knows Bush will win the majority of them. Why else in Dade and Broward would we see a HUGE amount getting thrown out. And although I disagree with your 300 vote count in Palm Beach getting thrown out (It was much lower in that county) dont you know that Palm Beach is democrat country? So one one point you are saying Republicans are throwing them out, then on the other point you are saying a Democrat county threw out 300 of them?

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"Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"

 

This is what is happening. Bush got around 60% of the overseas ballots. Gore hasnt gotten the turnaround he thought he would in Manual recounts. So they change the rules, Cheat alittle to get some more Gore votes. Then they throw out overseas ballots that have been going 60% for Bush.

Complete nonsense. The votes were thrown out the same day or before the hand counting process even started! (Due to the delays of the Republicans)

And you said that the republicans are the ones throwing out the absentee ballots? Are you crazy?

I just saw a report on MSNBC (satelite) that Rupublican counters were in fact the ones who threw out the absentees because they didn't follow the state guidelines for postmark, signature, and/or they voted for more than one candidate. Again, another hypocritical point by the Republicans. How about this deal: We include the 19,000 double votes in Palm Beach to Gore, and you can have your few thousand absentees?

Here is an excerpt from ABCNEWS.COM:


Ballots Being Disqualified

A significant number of the absentee ballots have been disqualified due to irregularities, such as multiple votes or the lack of a proper signature. The Associated Press has reported that nearly 1,400 overseas ballots were thrown out.
In a blow to Gore’s hopes, nearly half of the 307 overseas absentee ballots in Democratic-leaning Miami-Dade County have been thrown out due to irregularities.

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THE "W" IS FOR WASTED

[This message has been edited by Danilo (edited November 19, 2000).]

 

Danillo
Out of the votes that they counted, Bush received 1380, Gore received 750. Are you telling me that by not counting the other MILITARY ballots that would hurt Gore? Please. History shows that Military and and overseas ballots go strongly for republicans, hell even in 1996 Dole beat Clinton in overseas ballots.
And it is true that the Democrats were the ones that did NOT want to count these votes. That is why the thrown out ballots happened in Democratic counties. They realize if they counted the votes Bush would have stretched his lead into a larger one.

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"Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"

 

Actually, According to CNN. Clinton picked up 770,000 votes after all the overseas votes were tabulated. It is simply untrue that republicans pick up the majority of overseas votes. Republicans pick up the majority of overseas votes in Florida (typically) but Democrats destroy them in the overseas California votes.

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"I have amazing, powers of observation"...Pink