Ming at the High Post

I agree, and I think many of us have asked for this here.

 

I liked how the Kings used Brad Miller in the high post with the pick 'n roll

seemed very effective and we know that Yao can hit those kinds of shots...its always worth a try but thats all up to coach Van Gundy and he does VERY little experimentation

 

What's the point of having a 7'6 center with low post moves then?

 

Ocasionally, yes but all the time? No.

I don't want our 7'6 center reduced to just another jumpshooter. We have enough of those already.

 

I think he should primarily be a jump shooting center. He's had good games in the low block, but clearly, he's just too inconsistent to be a dominant inside player. I think we struggle the most when Yao's fighting for position, and everyone's trying to get him the ball. That's why you see Sura and Wesley ignoring him so much and doing their own thing, to keep the offense from sagging. BTW, I'm not a YOF, but I noticed that whenever Yao and Sura run the p&r, Yao will rarely look back for the ball..he'll just look to set a pick to get McGrady open. But when him and McGrady run the same play, he'll always look back for the pass.

Anyway, we're just not using Yao's strengths correctly. His best weapon is hitting an open 15 footer, and for someone who's 7'6, he would be best used as the finisher. He should never dribble the ball. However, I don't see us doing anything in the playoffs until we get a PF (Badiane!) who can bump down low while Ming plays in the high post, and a PG who can get our stars open shots. I've always thought that McGrady/Yao were at their best when they receive the ball going towards the basket. With T-Mac using his athleticism and Yao using his height, we need a PG who can make those passes. I hate seeing T-Mac post up all the time, we need a better team game. But until we get better players and until Yao realizes how effective his jump shot can be, we're always going to be a 4-8 seed.

 

The truth is that most in the NBA believe Yao has the ability to dominate on the low block because of his frame and athletic skill set, but he will NEVER learn to play down there if you drop him in the high post and let him shoot jumpers.

I was listening to a couple NBA analysts the past few days and they all say that guys like Yao should be expected to develop more slowly than the average NBA player - no US college, little experience against NBA-style competition, European style of play.

BUT, and they all agree on this, if Yao is ever going to be a dominant big man - a guy that can change every game he plays - he MUST learn to have a low post game. You could put him in the high post, but there has NEVER been a big man that dominated the NBA game from that position. There have been very serviceable guys who played there - Rik Smits, Vlade Divac - but no serious hall-of-fame-calliber big man spent more than a small percentage of his time in the high post.

With Yao, if he is into his fifth or sixth season and still hasn't developed the instincts for the game on the low block, I think then you can re-evaluate his career path and decide that he'll never be the dominant force at center. At that point, you can make the decision for him to be an effective, above average center that plays the high post game and is a piece of a championship puzzle rather than the main cog in that wheel.

Until then, moving him out of the low post might make the short term seem better (or maybe not, we can't know for sure), but it would thwart his ability to be an effective elite player over the span of his career.

 

Yao in the high post all the time - no.

Yao in the high post more often - yes.

 

I agree that we need to utilize Yao more in the high post, however as a second option. First option should continue to be the low post, but if he's facing fronting defenses and having trouble getting the ball down low (which is quite often nowadays) then we need to get him the ball more up high. Yao is a good passer, a good shooter, and we're not taking advantage of it. He poses a huge threat with his height, passing ability, and ability to hit the jumper when in the high post. If he's handling the ball out there, defenses have to defend...freeing up space down low and allowing other players to make cuts to the basket.

I'm not suggesting that we play him that way initially, but more in reaction to the fronting defenses that have been giving him trouble. It seems if he can't get the ball down low, then he's basically out of the offensive equation. He's just got more weapons that we should be utilizing, not disregarding.

 

I agree with both Jeff and King Cheetah. Yao has to learn how to play better down low so he has to play in the low post primarily. But he does need to be able to go outside on designed plays and knock down some jumpers do keep the defense honest. Hakeem, Ewing, most dominant big men went out to the FT line from time to time to spot up and shoot.

One thing that is lacking in our offensive scheme is the creativity necessary to get the ball to Yao effectively. Van Gundy seems to be very creative defensively, but I don't know if he has the ability to help our offense really improve that much. Yao has been getting that fronting defense all season and we still haven't figured out how to play it yet. And when Yao does get the ball in the post, there is not nearly enough cutting to the rim off the double team.

Another point is the fact that if he is going to learn the low post by playing down there constantly, you have got to throw him the ball. Yeah, he is having trouble catching it. But he won't learn to play the low post by just getting beat up down there. He has to have the ball thrown in there so he can learn to catch and make a move or pass with it.

You can tell that most of our players are hesitant to throw it to him. I think this is because they want to get him the ball but they are afraid of the weakside help knocking the ball loose or whatever. I don't think they are against Yao. But we do a horrendous job of getting him the ball and that hesitation actually makes it much worse. Instead of just reading and reacting with the pass, they are deking and faking the pass, while Yao has his defender pinned and most of the time it gives the defense time to recover and read what we are doing. I think Yao has to be thrown the ball much more quickly when he is first establishing position on the block. And we have to be able to throw the pass over the top when he has the fronting defender pinned down. Just bang the ball off the glass to him instead of these slow, soft cream puff passes because we are trying to make it catchable. Those slow, light, soft passes are just allowing time for the defense to react and making it harder for Yao to do his thing. Throw him the ball quickly and with some juice on it if you have to until he learns to expect the ball that way.

Lastly, when Yao is being defended one on one such as in the Kings game with Brad Miller on his hip at the beginning of the game, we have got to go into him and keep going into him until the defense is forced to adjust. We shouldn't go to another play. We know TMac is gonna get his and is gonna dominate his matchup on every night. But it means so much more to our team when Yao gets it going and gets his defenders in foul trouble. For that to happen, he has got to have the ball and when he is being played one on one on the block, we gotta run the play through him and put the pressure on the defense.

 

he doesn't have to be a strictly low post or high post player, rather a combination of the two. if he's having trouble in the low post then bring him out and let him get going by getting him a couple of open jump shots. why do we insist on making yao work so hard for his shots? if he can get a few looks from 10 feet out then let him pull it. that doesn't mean that we're restricting him to a "jump shooting" center.

 

Great post Jeff.

 

I'd like to see him in the high post a little more often if and when we get a rebounding-monster 4. Until then, it'd be interesting to try Dik down there for a few minutes along with Yao.

 

It would help Yao conserve some energy as well if he wasn't banging around down low all night ~ he wouldn't have to run as far either.

 

I love it when giddyup asks questions like this.

 

If we turn him into the next Sam Perkins, we may never find out.

 

I think you guys have a misconception about what the high post is. When you think of guys that shoot (or shot) a lot from the free throw line, etc. as big men, you think of people like Brad Miller or Joe Klein. But, they weren't in a high post offense. They got their shots off of rotation - their defender rotated down to cover a man in the post or to cut off dribble penetration. They got shots when their teammate kicked it to them on that defensive rotation.

Traditional high post players like Divac rarely got shots out of the high post offense from 17 feet. He started the offense and had the option of passing into the post, running guys off of his screen or hitting cutters to the basket. When he scored, it was usually baseline jumpers after the intial penetration of another player or with his back to the basket in the post.

The Rockets actually do run some high post now, but they bring the power forward into the high post and use him to feed Yao when he is rolling across the lane. They set it up by running the forwards off of down screens by the guards to free him up either for a shot or to feed Yao in the post. If he shoots, Yao is in position for an offensive board.

I'm not sure you guys would like Yao in the high post because it is likely he would get FEWER shots from that position and shoot a lower percentage because of his distance from the basket. If you just want him to get jumpers at the free throw line, it is going to be tough to do because you have to rely on one of two things:

1. Yao running off of a screen. Dirk Nowitzki does this quite a bit, but he is a LOT faster than Yao and is taking moving jumpers. Yao is a set shooter who needs to be in position to shoot when he gets the ball, not moving. The only center I've ever seen do this effectively was Olajuwon but he moved more like a guard than a center. Yao doesn't have that kind of athletic ability.

2. Freeing Yao on a defensive double team. This is the most common for centers where another player posts up and Yao's man goes to double leaving him open. This is what you often saw with Barkley posting and Joe Klein getting 17 foot open shots. The problem is that you have to have a reliable post up threat to draw the double team in the first place. McGrady doesn't post up and there isn't another decent post up threat on the team that could consistently draw a double team of Yao's man.

We don't have the personnel to put Yao in the high post and, even if we did, I'm not convinced his production would improve.