1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

The Shroud may be authentic !

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by DaDakota, Jan 25, 2005.

  1. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    129,312
    Likes Received:
    39,859
    Link

    Jan. 25, 2005 — The Shroud of Turin, the piece of linen long believed to have been wrapped around Jesus's body after the crucifixion, is much older than the date suggested by radiocarbon tests, according to new microchemical research.

    Published in the current issue of Thermochimica Acta, a chemistry peer- reviewed scientific journal, the study dismisses the results of the 1988 carbon-14 dating.


    The Shroud in 2000


    “ A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old. ”

    At that time, three reputable laboratories in Oxford, Zurich and Tucson, Ariz., concluded that the cloth on which the smudged outline of the body of a man is indelibly impressed, was a medieval fake dating from 1260 to 1390, and not the burial cloth wrapped around the body of Christ.

    "As unlikely as it seems, the sample used to test the age of the shroud in 1988 was taken from a rewoven area of the shroud. Indeed, the patch was very carefully made. The yarn has the same twist as the main part of the cloth, and it was stained to match the color," Raymond Rogers, a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratories and former member of the STURP team of American scientists that examined the Shroud in 1978, told Discovery News.

    The presence of a patch on the shroud doesn't come as a surprise. The linen cloth has survived several blazes since its existence was first recorded in France in 1357, including a church fire in 1532.

    Badly damaged, it was then restored by nuns who patched burn holes and stitched the shroud to a reinforcing cloth that is now known as the Holland cloth.

    In his study, Rogers analyzed and compared the radiocarbon sample with other samples from the controversial cloth.

    "As part of the STURP research project, I took 32 adhesive-tape samples from all areas of the shroud in 1978, including some patches and the Holland cloth. I also obtained the authentic samples used in the radiocarbon dating," Rogers said.

    It emerged that the radiocarbon sample has completely different chemical properties than the main part of the shroud, Rogers said.

    "The radiocarbon sample had been dyed, most likely to match the color of the older, sepia-colored cloth. The sample was dyed using a technology that began to appear in Italy about the time the Crusaders' last bastion fell to the Mameluke Turks in 1291.

    "The radiocarbon sample cannot be older than about 1290, agreeing with the age determined by carbon-14 dating in 1988. However, the Shroud itself is actually much older," said Rogers.

    Evidence came from microchemical tests that revealed the presence of vanillin in the radiocarbon sample and in the Holland cloth, but not in the rest of the shroud.

    Produced by the thermal decomposition of lignin, a chemical compound of plant material including flax, vanillin decreases and disappears with time. It is easily detected on medieval linens, but cannot be found in the very old ones, such as the wrappings of the Dead Sea scrolls.

    "A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old," Rogers wrote.

    According to Tom D'Muhala, the president of the American Shroud of Turin Association for Research, the new chemical tests produced "conclusive evidence."

    "They indicate that the linen Shroud is actually very old — much older than the published 1988 radiocarbon date," D'Muhala said.

    Shroud History
    Scientific interest in linen cloth began in 1898, when it was photographed by lawyer Secondo Pia. The negatives revealed the image of a bearded man with pierced wrists and feet and a bloodstained head.

    In 1988, the Vatican approved carbon-dating tests. Three reputable laboratories in Oxford, Zurich and Tucson, Ariz., concluded that the shroud was medieval, dating from 1260 to 1390, and not a burial cloth wrapped around the body of Christ.

    But since then a growing sense that the radiocarbon dating might have had substantial flaws emerged among shroud scholars.

    The history of the cloth has been steeped in mystery. It has survived several blazes since its existence was first recorded in France in 1357, including a mysterious fire at Turin Cathedral in 1997.

    Kept rolled up in a silver casket, it has been on display only five times in the past century. When it last went on display in 2000, more than three million people saw it. The next display will be in 2025.


    Interesting.
     
  2. twhy77

    twhy77 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,041
    Likes Received:
    73
    Saw it during 2000 Jubilee year. Pretty awesome, even if it isn't true...
     
  3. No Worries

    No Worries Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    32,901
    Likes Received:
    20,683
    Wow, that really narrows it down to a 1700 year window of opportunity. Can we deduce that the shroud has a one in 1700 chance of being from the same year of Christ death?
     
  4. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    16,173
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Why would somebody make a fake before Christ's death. It seems like we can combine deductive reasoning with this new information, and at least eliminate the 1020 or so year window before the supposed date of the death of Jesus.
     
  5. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    61,866
    Likes Received:
    41,395
    The point is that when you have 1700 year margin of error for something that allegedly happened 2000 years ago, you shouldn't use the term "conclusive evidence"
     
  6. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    129,312
    Likes Received:
    39,859
    Maybe he meant it is conclusive that it is older.

    :)
     
  7. Cohen

    Cohen Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    10,751
    Likes Received:
    6
    That's exciting.

    Even w/ the bickering here. :)
     
  8. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    59,079
    Likes Received:
    52,748
    [​IMG]

    Whatever the exact facts on this thing ~ it is very interesting...
     
  9. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    45,954
    Likes Received:
    28,049
    Imagine the day when we can start cloning with blood samples. Would that be blasphemy or a plead for help?
     
  10. Uprising

    Uprising Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2000
    Messages:
    43,079
    Likes Received:
    6,611
    wow. This is facintating. nice read.
     
  11. synergy

    synergy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,269
    Likes Received:
    0
    unlikely...

    get over it. he's dead already..
     
  12. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Messages:
    14,382
    Likes Received:
    13
    Sure it's not this guy?

    [​IMG]
     
  13. synergy

    synergy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,269
    Likes Received:
    0
    lol, mr. meowgi--always good for a morning laugh
     

Share This Page