I don't want to debate the issue of abortion here, just ask a couple of questions. If you want abortion to be illegal, do you agree that sex education should be available at an early age and taught vigorously? Should birth control be free of charge to women of any age? Should delinquent fathers be sent to jail for not supporting their children? Should women have free and safe health care services to assist them with unwanted pregnancies? Should we triple or quadruple funding for sex education, birth control and health care for expectant mothers programs to pay for the extra cost? The reason I ask this is that I have found that the solution to abortion for many is simply to tell women and men (and boys and girls) to stop having sex out of wedlock. (Frankly, I think that in many cases it should extend in to marriage but that is another topic.) Abstinence, while admirable, is the equivalent of sticking your head in a large hole in the ground with your fingers in your ears and hoping everything turns out ok. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com [This message has been edited by Jeff (edited September 29, 2000).]
Jeff, I love you man, but read your first sentence again. ------------------ stop posting my damn signature
I never really understood the point of sex ed. How difficult is it to understand sex causes babies. Now its a differant arguement if you want to provide birthcontrol at an early age. I have a better idea ... teach RESPONSIBLITY! ------------------ ...out with the old, in with the new...
I have to admit Jeff -- that's what I was thinking ------------------ NOTHING BUT .NET CLUTCHCITY.NET
I'm not debating abortion, just wondering if those who support it also support things that would keep women from having unwanted pregnancies. My point was that I did not want to debate whether or not abortion was right or wrong but rather to determine what those who support the pro-life stance suggest we do to prevent unwanted pregnancy and, therefore, eliminate the need for abortion. I guess I just find it ironic that many of those who think abortion is murder also believe that sex education is wrong and birth control and health education should not be supported assuming that abstinence is the only solution. So, here's a re-vamped version of my first sentence: "I don't want to debate whether or not abortion is wrong in this thread, I'd just like to know a couple of things." Better? ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
It's the first sentence about teaching sex ed at an early age and teaching it vigorously that stands out. ------------------
So, what is "early" when teaching kids about Sex Ed?? Personally, I don't know if learning about the birds and the bees quite fits in during Kindergarten class with fingerpainting and nap time... Besides, didn't we all learn about sex in the FIRST grade from that weird kid who's father had the big stack of Playboys? ------------------ If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!! [This message has been edited by A-Train (edited September 29, 2000).]
First off, I disagree with sex ed being taught at an early age. That is the parents job to teach they children at the proper age(whichever age is deemed appropiate by the parents). My tax dollars should not go to teaching jr. high and elementary school children how to have sex. As for increasing tax dollars to support unwed mothers. We already have medicare to help unwed mothers with no income. Everything is paided for. Abstinence is not putting your head in the sand. That is not a good analogy. Passing out birth control and teaching kids how to have sex is more like that analogy. You attack the symptoms but not the problem. We should teach kids that there are consequences to their actions. If you have sex then be prepared for the consequences. That is a big problem right now with our society. To take responsibility for one's actions is a passing thought nowadays. We blame and sue every one and their brother because it could not our fault. It must be the fault of big tobacco, big oil, Microsoft,etc. This is a basic lesson that does not seem to be taught anymore. Teach kids to be responsible and let them know that if they wish to indulge in activites such as sex, they better be ready for the consequences. But you are correct, Jeff. This is quite a dilemma. I will always be pro-life but it is every person's right to choose their own path. ------------------ Houston Rockets Forever!! In Rudy We Trust
"My tax dollars should not go to teaching jr. high and elementary school children how to have sex." by that same token, should we also not teach fire prevention for fear children will set the school on fire? or drug prevention for fear students will be fed ideas about experimentation? ------------------
My take: Kids usually star to get real curious by the time they reach Jr. high and that is when many 12 and 13y/o's make the mistake and start "experimenting" by the time they reach 16 they have had quite a few sexual partners and even if they were lucky enough not to get pregnant who is to say they did not aquire a disease such as AIDS ? and not even know it and pass it around their peers? I am not a parent but let's face it people (for those of you that have youngins) kids now a days are having sex much earlier then some of us did, same thing our parents said about us right? well, its very debatable what the proper age is but it should be an age at wish kids will not only remember but understand the consequences of it! Just passing out BC pills wont cut it , they have to be taught responsibility, self love and dicipline. ------------------ Life moves pretty fast, If you don't stop and look once in a while you might miss it!! ... Ferris Bueler
Dennis, All kids understand the results of their actions. All teenagers know that sex leads to pregnancy (so "teaching them responsibility" means little). They just do not ever think it will happen to them. How do you teach them otherwise? It is the same as teenagers running accross the street more recklessly than a 30 year old- they have a limited sense of their own mortality. My parents never even mentioned sex to me & I had one useless semester of sex ed in school, but I did not go around impregnating everything. The reason? Well, I am not an idiot - but there are plenty of people who are. You cannot make an irresponsible person responsible - it is impossible. All you can do is try to reduce the damage they create. Medicaid (not Medicare) is far from a real help for much of anything. We spay and neuter pets, why don't we do the same to humans? Now that is progressive policy! I realize this post was 99% useless, but trying to find that 1% that was good is a fun challenge, right? ------------------ Talking to a dead hare about art
Dennis, Believing parents will educate their children on sex is simply a fantasy. I wish they did but they don't. The reality is that this world is growing by leaps and bounds in population. Why? Because in third world countries and countries where women's rights and opportunities are minimalized by men, they are having child upon child upon child. What is the solution? Education. Study after study has shown that a comprehensive sex education program is the key to keeping children from having sex early and getting pregnant. You can leave it to the parents but the unwanted children that are the result of parents not getting involved cost you a whole hell of a lot more in tax dollars than the education does. As for healthcare, I'm not just talking about maternity care. Who will take care of the child when mom is at work and dad has disappeared? Who will pay for all the diaper bills and formula? Who is supposed to prevent the kid from being physically and emotionally abused because they live in an environment that is difficult at best, awful at worst? Let me ask you this. Have you ever been to a community clinic for health care? Would you want to take your children and family there for medical attention? The hospitals that have money also have better doctors, better care of their patients and better choices. If you've ever been to a health clinic in an impoverished neighborhood, you know that they do not. We tried NOT educating kids. We tried telling them to not have sex. We tried NOT giving out birth control. None of it has worked. We have more children today in America than anytime in the history of America living below the poverty line or homeless. The percentage of those born to unwed young mothers or who will eventually bear children at an early age is staggering. It is time to stop living in a world of "what-if's" and deal with the world of "what is." ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
As a teenager i can offer a different point of few on abortion. we debated this in speech class alot. im 16 yrs. old btw sex ed should be taught beginning in 6th grade and be taught pretty much every other year until 12th. jeff i dont think people can ever just tell young people or any1 "dont have sex" they will alwayz have to make that choice for themselves. i think abortion.. does need to be illegal in most cases. in some cases like rape, incest, baby could kill the mother giving birth, special circumstances fine. but alot of abortion clinics have truly awful methods of aborting the baby. i mean most people should take responsibility for what they do. if a girl gets pregnant fine. have the baby either raise it or put it up for adoption. so yah i think sex ed should be taught at an early age. u guys say stuff like "its not that hard to figure out sex makes babies" but alot of young people r ignorant and dont know alot about the consequences. ------------------ --TEX
"i mean most people should take responsibility for what they do. if a girl gets pregnant fine. have the baby either raise it or put it up for adoption." If only it were that easy. I can think of numerous instances where that either isn't an option or would be exceedingly difficult. Besides, you mentioned "if a girl gets pregnant" but what about the father? What is his responsibility? The reality is that it takes two to tango and often times the girl is left holding the baby and the father is gone. It is easy to find solutions when we don't have the problems but it is a different story when you start to look at the reality of the situation and deal with people instead of numbers. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
I'll jump in minimally here as I know that this is a hot topic with folks and most are set in their ways. Anyway, ASSUMING that folks will have sex anyway, they should be taught some of the info involved with natural family planning (NFP) in a sex ed. type of course. NFP, when used properly, is more effective than the pill in preventing pregnancy. Granted, in the heat of passion, all responsibility gets thrown out the window, but having this information would seem to help. Incidentally, NFP, is the only "approved" method of birth control in the Catholic church. ------------------
I don't see the correlation in any of these to being anti-abortion. Why should everybody else be responsible for people that don't know how to act? A better question might be, if abortion wasn't available, would we have more or less unwanted pregnancies? Would people maybe act more responsible if they knew there was no way out after they got pregnant? Or, how bout these questions: If abortion is okay, should mothers who abuse alcohol, drugs, or smoke while they're pregnant, with direct negative consequence to their child, be prosecuted? If I walk up to a woman who is about to give birth, stab her belly and kill her child, should I be prosecuted for murder? If women should have "the right to choose", or "be allowed to do what they want with their bodies", shouldn't that right to abort extend up to the day of birth?
But they do have a direct correlation. In countries and even regions of the US where sex education is taught at an early age and birth control is readily available, the rate of unwanted pregnancies is significantly lower. The fact is that education and birth control are FAR cheaper than hospital care and the cost of welfare for mothers who can't afford to take care of their children. In places where abortion is or has been illegal, there are still many many unwanted pregnancies. Mothers either choose to terminate the pregnacy themselves at great risk or have children and live with them in poverty. Even in the 50's and 60's when unwanted pregnancies were far less prominent, alley abortions with coat hangers were not uncommon. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
There are many people in America who are waiting to adopt a baby. It can take years for a baby to become available. Wouldn't putting unwanted children up for adoption be a viable alternative to abortion that would not require significant long term expenditures by poor unwed mothers or the taxpayers. ------------------ I'm sticking with Charlotte. I can't flip because I don't want to be confused with Peter Vecsey. -- Charles Barkley
Hydra: If you check those numbers, you'll see that there are many people waiting to adopt a healthy caucasion baby. Very few of those are the one's that end up unwanted and wards of the state. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
What's your point here? I say, if someone feels they want to break the law, who's gonna stop them? Don't you know anyone who's tried an illegal drug, sped, run a stop sign? Where are these numbers? I find it hard to believe, but maybe I have too much faith in mankind (and I don't have very much). (Hmmm, this was my 2000th post.... Well, at least I can say, I've always posted my true opinions, and for the most part haven't "inflated" my post count with meaningless jibberish - some may disagree. ) ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. DREAMer's Rocket Page [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited October 01, 2000).]
