A man went into a gay bar over the weekend and went on a pre-meditated shooting rampage, killing one and wounding 5 others. If this had been a racially motivated hate crime, the media would be in a frenzy but it's barely a blip on the radar screen. Republicans in the House refuse to add sexual orientation to a Federal Hate Crimes Law. Bush also killed one in TX last year. Just wondering if the Republicans in this group (MadMax, dcsports, TheFreak, DREAMer, grummett) agree with their party on this issue and if so, why?
Why is there so much hate in this world ? What is wrong with consenting adults who want to mingle with others like them ? Can any Republican tell me the harm it would do if we put Violent crimes against gays under hate crimes ? ------------------ "Well, I don't know what I received my honorary degree in, but judging by the fine sisters in the crowd, I hope it is gynecology." Mike Tyson speaks to the crowd after receiving his honorary degree from a college in Ohio.
From my experiences Republicans constantly feel "threatened" by those that aren't like them....in all arenas of life. I've always wondered something, what is the percentage of races other than white and gays that are Republican compared to Democrat/Independant? ------------------ Too often, we lose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and pimp-slap the mother****** upside the head!
I think it completely lame that we have to add racial definitions to acts of crime. A crime is a crime no matter who commits it. Hate is hate no matter who it is directed at. Murder is murder no matter who kills who. ALL intentional murders should be treated equally. A white man who kills a black man is no different than a white man who kills another white man. It is no different than a black man who kills another black man. It's the same as a black man who kills a white man. It is also the same as a straight white or black man who kills a gay man. Just as a gay man who kills a straight man, it's all the same. Murder is murder. One person killing another person is just wrong. There are no "levels" of murder, in my mind at least. I am a very open-minded person who holds no prejudice against any race or sexual orientation. To me, a hate crime is when a person or group premeditates a target becuse of prejudice and then acts on the premeditation. That crime was fueled by hate. If this person or group kills their target then they have crossed that line and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I hope no one takes me wrong because I am NOT saying that hate should go unpunished. I'm just saying that ALL murder is wrong and that there should not be "levels" of how offensive that particular murder was. Was Columbine not a hate crime? Was John Lennon's assasination not a hate crime? All murderers are equal in that they are simply ****ed up. Let them all be punished to the max. The killing of a gay guy is just as horrendous as any other man's murder, straight, gay, black or white. Our legal system is ****ed up enough. Why introduce more "levels of severity" to a crime that is severe enough on it's on. Comments? ------------------ RocketFuel is dead!
Agreed Space City. I think the purpose of "hate crime laws" is to stop the premeditation of them. A racist is more likely to plan a murder of gays, blacks, hispanics, etc. than a guy who murders his girlfriend cuz he caught her cheating on him. I agree that it does not make one better than the other. I think Columbine would be classified as a hate crime. ------------------ "Well, I don't know what I received my honorary degree in, but judging by the fine sisters in the crowd, I hope it is gynecology." Mike Tyson speaks to the crowd after receiving his honorary degree from a college in Ohio.
SpaceCity: I think the argument for the introduction of hate crime legislation is due to the fact that, unfortunately, all crimes are not treated equally. There are plenty of statistics to show that when a black man kills a white man, he more often than not is given the maximum punishment but, when a white man kills a black man, he is given a lesser sentence. Hate crime legislation is designed to even up the inequities. It isn't the best way to handle it, but it is probably the only way. I agree that murder is murder but juries are biased and they are the one's who make the decisions. I think we all can admit that a white jury prosecuting a black man for a crime against a white man is more likely to hand down a heavier sentence than a black jury. It may not be right but it is fact. Hate crime legislation is designed to protect us, in a way, from ourselves. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
I'll bite. I agree with alot of what you've said. Murder is bad no matter who is involved. But it's the nature of our legal system to classify crimes, especially murder, based on the mental state of the person behind it - thus manslaughter, first degree murder, capital murder, etc. Motivation is the key factor in the crime: its not murder when we kill someone in war, or by capital punishment, but it's a very different story if an elected official or a cop is killed. Also, our level of indignation as a society is raised if its an "unforgiveable" killing, as opposed to a "crime of passion" or the like. All that said, murdering homosexuals is no less heinous than murdering members of a racial minority, IMO. ------------------
SpaceCity - I suppose the holocaust wasn't such a tragedy either. "Levels of severity" and intent are already in our criminal justice system (1st degree, 2nd degree murder). Hate crime laws insure that these individuals are prosecuted and serve as a message to others who would commit similar crimes that they will be severely punished.
What the heck is the difference?? if you kill a guy do you die easier than if you kill a gay person ?? A Gay person can hide themselves , Skin colors are what make hate crimes , I think the Republicans are correct on the matter ------------------ This signature space for rent call 555 ...
"A gay person can hide themselves"??? moestavern, you're a smart guy and a good poster, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here (I say alot of dumb things on these boards too). The crime doesn't become less evil just because someone can "hide themselves" (if that is really possible). And should a gay man or woman really have to hide themself in order to avoid being the victim of a crime? By that same token, I suppose the internment of the japanese-americans during WWII wasn't bad, since they could pass themselves off as chinese or vietnamese to the average passer-by. ------------------
So a gay person should be in seclusion because they are gay ? I have alot of gay friends, and I take that a little personally. Besides, wasn't it enough that they were in a gay club "hiding" themselves from Republicans with Rueggers ? btw, I think if it were up to Republicans, we may not even have hate crimes. ------------------ "Well, I don't know what I received my honorary degree in, but judging by the fine sisters in the crowd, I hope it is gynecology." Mike Tyson speaks to the crowd after receiving his honorary degree from a college in Ohio.
That is like saying a woman deserved to get raped because she wore a short skirt and low cut blouse. Oh, that's right, our legal system used to say that. My bad. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
outlaw, I think what it boils down to is that homosexuality hasn't been proved (and most likely will not be proved) to be something other than a lifestyle "choice". You don't get to choose what race you are. ------------------------- Please don't jump on my case. I'm not saying that one premeditated murder is worse than the next. What I am saying is that that is most likely why attacks against homosexuals was not put under the listing of "hate crimes". A crime such as the one outlaw began this thread about is obviously what any normal person would consider a "hate crime". That crime was perpetrated against another group of individuals, because of one person's insane hatred for that group. What is in question is what the legal definition of what a "hate crime" is. I agree with moestavern to the extent that gay people don't have any stickers on them or signs above their heads saying they are gay. I agree with Jeff in that this legislation is put there to protect minorities from a "majority" way of thinking. But, I don't like it. It's much to close to "Big Brother" tactics. (Man, I hate the fact that they named that TV show that. Now, half of the people will read "Big Brother" and think, "What does this have to do with that show?". Go read a bood people.) But, then again I see no other way. That doesn't mean there isn't another way, just that I don't know enough about the processes and law to see it. ------------------------------ outlaw, It is difficult for me to tell you, "No crimes against homosexuals, because of their sexual predisposition should not be considered hate crimes." Like I said, they are crimes spawned from hate, but in the legal sense they may not fit the criteria to be legally considered a "hate crime". I know this may not be a great argument against it, but maybe that's because I realize it is hate. But, you asked a question, and I've given you what I believe to be the basis for that decision, whether it was a good one or not, I can't tell you. I don't know why I take something such as the "Hangout" forum at clutchcity so seriously. But, I don't get a chance to discuss many of these topics outside of this medium. When you put the "Republican" tag on me, I think you're putting too much weight behind some of my basic political feelings. On many social issues I am far from conservative. On other issues, such as national defense, big government, laws against small businesses, abortion, etc., I couldn't be further from liberal. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. DREAMer's Rocket Page
Gays may not have "stickers" on their head, but this guy sure did know where to find them. ------------------ "Well, I don't know what I received my honorary degree in, but judging by the fine sisters in the crowd, I hope it is gynecology." Mike Tyson speaks to the crowd after receiving his honorary degree from a college in Ohio.
An update to the story, the gunman's excuse for his shooting spree was because his last name is "Gay" and he was tired of people making fun of his name. Because "only" one of his victims died his maximum sentence is life in prison. If another of his victims dies then he is eligible for the death penalty. A Federal Law could possibly reduce that "victim quota" to one. In 1991, ten kids from MacArthur High School in The Woodlands, attacked and killed a gay man for fun on a Houston street. None of them were sent to death row and the longest sentence was 45 years. The killer with the 2nd longest sentence was released from prison in March 2000 after serving only 6 years of his 20 year sentence. If he was charged with a hate crime in addition to murder then perhaps he wouldn't be walking the streets today.
Religion is protected under existing hate crime laws. Isn't this a "lifestyle choice"? The reason I called you a Republican is because you identified yourself as one in the Timmons/Safin thread. If I was mistaken then I apologize. [This message has been edited by outlaw (edited September 26, 2000).]
Outlaw, I think you misunderstood where i was coming from. My point is that I think that ALL premeditated murder is equally bad. Let's say I have a 17 year old kid who was shot down in cold blood in a car-jacking incident. That murder is just as evil as stright guy killing a gay guy, or white guy killing a black guy, or vice versa. I'm in no way saying that one murder is less significant than another. The systen does, however. As Jeff pointed out, it is to protect us from ourselves. I just think it's sad that it has to be that way. Why is it that we never hear about the tragic murders in Compton or other poor neighborhoods yet Columbine became a National tragedy. I'm not downplaying Columbine so don't go jumping on that. I'm just saying that it's sad that we have to wait for things to happen to middle/upper class suburban society before it becomes an "issue". All premeditated murder is equally evil. ------------------ RocketFuel is dead!
gr-8, Do you really mean this -- to portray all Republicans as Hate Mongers, or were you exaggerating to make a point? Because I'm a little disappointed if you do. I haven't seen anything that said the guy committed this crime because of a political affiliation, or even that he was a member of any particular party. Do you know for a fact that he wasn't a Democrat? or a Libertarian? or a Ros Perot Reformer? or a Green person? I'm sure there are bad people of all affiliations, and "hate" for a particular group probably has more to do with a local culture or other factors than any political affiliation. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that you are right in one aspect -- "If it were up to Republicans there would be no hate crimes." That's true, and the same could be said for Democrats. Probably most people that care enough about the future of our country, and it's ideas and values, to align themselves with a particular party, would wish that these crimes would stop. It's the people that don't care that worry me. ------------------ Stay Cool...
What am I doing in here , Dang i feel like Im in a Debate or something . Yes guys YOU KNOW that i was suggesting a gay person can hide in their house for the rest of their lives , sheesh ------------------ This signature space for rent call 555 ...
I understand the basic argument against hate crimes, that all murder is bad. But we do weigh certain crimes against certain individuals a little more. For instance, if someone was to rape and murder a 35-year old woman, they may get the death penalty (at least outside of Texas). But if you rape and murder an 8-year old girl, you'll be getting the death penalty most likely. Same goes with cops. I think that if it can be proven that the addition of hate crimes laws reduces the amount of killings just because of what somebody is, then it's a good thing. I really don't see what the problem is, to tell you the truth. It's not like they're raising taxes to do this. And yes, if you are going to have hate crimes, homosexuals should be added, as well as anyone who is murdered for who they are, including heterosexuals. ------------------ Cheerleaders are just dancers who've gone r****ded. visit www.swirve.com
