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Ethics, morality, spirituality, religion, philosphy...

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by rimbaud, Sep 20, 2000.

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  1. rimbaud

    rimbaud Contributing Member
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    It's story telling time, folks. Step up to the mic and voice your thoughts...

    Looking back through your life, what seems to have been the crucial factor(s) in determining your world view in regards to the areas described in the title of this thread?

    Something you heard (or was raised to beleive)?

    Something you read?

    A certain event?

    Something you just "felt"?

    Something you came upon because you had no where else to go?

    Secondly, do the majority of your beleifs come as a result of one followed religion, or life philosophy? In other words, "I am a Hindu, therefore I beleive x y z..."

    Do some of your beliefs conflict with others (maybe a philosophy contradicting with a religious practice, whatever)?

    I do not mean for this to become a religion vs religion thread, or anything. I just want to know what pushes peole down a certain path, what it is that attracts someone to a set of beleifs.

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    Talking to a dead hare about art
     
  2. Gascon

    Gascon Member

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    I am guided by an inner compass that I believe to be truth. I have a personal relationship with God. I believe that I am one with God, that God is everywhere, and is present in everything. I share a bond with everything and everyone around me. Although we do not know how to conciously realize it, I believe that we all know what eachother is thinking and feeling...all of the time...everywhere...on a subconcious level that we simply have difficulty accessing. We are all the same, single power...the lifeforce that is God.

    This, of course, is not the sum-total of my beliefs. Sorry if it's not what you're looking for, but you did ask. [​IMG]

    Just thought I'd be the first to step in front of the firing squad. [​IMG]

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    Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead.

    No, wait, not me...you.
     
  3. Lynus302

    Lynus302 Contributing Member

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    I did not grow up in a religious family and I was NOT (much to my future happiness) brought up in any kind of church-related anything. Though my family is not religious, they are Christian (depending on who you ask, anyway) so growing up, I always considered myself to be a Christian as well. Growing up I read a lot of mythology and folklore as a hobby, which led to many of my own formulations and theories concerning God, what to believe, what it is to be religious and spiritual, etc.

    Here's my rant folks. Sorry, but Rimmy said story-time:

    Then came the Baptists (sorry, but I have a HUGE problem with the Baptist church, but not necessarily with individual baptists). As much as I hate to give any credit whatsoever to the baptist church, it did help form and solidify many of my current beliefs. They so kindly informed me that I was not in fact, a Christian, due to many of my own theories that did not sit well with the Bible word-for-word. Things like (God forbid) drinking every once in a while, the music I listened to, and just plain enjoying life in general did not seem to sit well with them. Seeing their attitudes and they way they constantly broke the #1 rule of Judge not, lest ye be judged, as well as their apparent inability to mind their own damn business completely turned me off of God and anything and everything to do with religion in general.

    Then, after some deep conversation with some very close friends, I felt the need to re-evaluate my religious thoughts. I don't follow any one particular religious practice. Webster would define me as an Agnostic, but I don't really think so. I believe in god. Whose god, you might ask? Just god, is my answer.

    I believe that every religionis more or less the same. Their are many parallels and similarities in most religions.
    2. I do NOT believe that you have to be a Christian (or a Buddhist, Muslim, whatever) to get into heaven. Following that logic, Charles Manson could be saved and get a free ticket, while some Buddhist monk who did his absolute best to live a life that was as perfect as it could possibly get would rot in hell forever. If that is the God that Christianity wants, then I want nothing to do with it.
    3. I believe the church was made to control man and does not glorify god and what it means to be spiritual.
    4. I believe that if there is indeed a God and a heaven, then your soul will be taken care of simply by living a good life and subscribing to the one religious thought that I actually follow. You all know the one:

    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

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    I need a new signature.
    302

    [This message has been edited by Lynus302 (edited September 20, 2000).]
     
  4. R0ckets03

    R0ckets03 Contributing Member

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    Damn Gas, that was some deep stuff!!!

    But speaking of contrasting believes: I am a Muslim, and I have no doubt that God created this world and all of the living organisms. Problem is, I also tend to kind of believe in evolution. So I think that God might have started out by making apes, but with his guidance we have evolved into a much better race.

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  5. DREAMer

    DREAMer Member

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    My Dad was a minister in The Assembly of God church.

    I have an uncle who was a Roman Catholic Priest for a number of years. (He "came out" at the age of 40. I never would've guessed.)

    I have another aunt/uncle duo who are both minister in the Episcapol church. (They have a lesbian daughter.)

    I went to Baptist, Lutheran, and Catholic schools up until the 8th grade.

    I consider myself a Christian, but one who has many problems with what "religion" and "the church" has done to the popular definition of my faith.

    I believe in the Bible. Word for word. Some of the Bible is literal, some is figurative. I'm no English Professor, but people who are can tell you which parts are which by how they are written.

    Religion, Churches, Preachers, Priests, Ministers... they are all men or man-made, and hence flawed. But, I believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and therefore perfect.

    What "drives" me is a sense of "right". I want things to be fair, and not just for myself. I believe there is a basic "right" and "wrong" and no matter what anyone believes they never change.

    I hate hypocracy. I hate abortion. I hate racism. I hate judgemental people who don't really have their own opinions. I hate that banks can require a friggin' thumbprint to cash a check. I hate when people put a positive spin on Big Brother-like systems (ie microchips in babies).


    I want: a smaller government, less infringement on people's rights.



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    I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
    DREAMer's Rocket Page
     
  6. ROCKSS

    ROCKSS Contributing Member

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    I believe that in the end everyone will be judged by God for there actions on earth.I believe there is one God,I do not believe in the "Trinity"
    I believe that I have become a better person since I started going to church.I believe the Bible as it is written,but I feel certain people try to put a spin on certain things to prove a point or to show why there way is right.I agree with Lynus that I dont feel you need to be a "Christian" to go to Heaven,and his analogy hit the nail on the head,I think we will be judged by our actions not by our religion.

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  7. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    Oh, man. You had to do this, didn't you rimmy!?

    I was raised in a Christian family with moderately liberal parents but a VERY conservative extended family. My grandfather, for instance, told my mother when I was only 1 that if she chose to return to work, it would ruin my life because mothers should stay home with their children.

    I went to Lutheran schools from K-12 and, at one point in my later high school years, was a self-proclaimed right wing conservative born again Christian. I played in Christian rock band as my musical outlet and was quick to let anyone and everyone know my beliefs.

    I left to go to the University of Texas in 1987 and found that I had more in common with guys that were not exactly Christians because they were the only one's who accepted me as I was - a long-haired musician. Most of the kids who had money, were in frats, etc, went to church when they were at home but treated people like crap. I was most disturbed by their treatment of the homeless people that lived near campus. Being from the suburbs, I had never seen homeless people before and I was moved by their plight.

    Anyway, I moved back to Houston and stopped attending church despite continuing to study the Bible. I've read it cover to cover numerous times (even the parts about the width of the curtains in the temple - BORING!!!).

    When I met my wife, she said something to me that completely altered my universe. I had already been looking into more scholarly and philosophical religious ideas including the search for the "real Jesus" so my beliefs were changing.

    My wife, who was, at the time, an admitted agnostic, told me there was no such thing as right or wrong. I had never heard of such a thing. I was shocked and a little pissed. But, over the next few weeks, I couldn't get it out of my head.

    I realized that right and wrong, like everything in the universe, are not absolutes, fixed in time and space. They are wholly dependant on the person, the circumstances, etc. The one that kept coming up for me was murder. Wasn't murder wrong? Sure it was, but what about for the murderer? He/She obviously didn't think it was wrong to murder someone or they wouldn't have done it.

    As I contemplated all this, I began to look to other religions for answers. I read Buddhist, Taoist and Hindu stuff. I listened to speakers that ranged from self-help type people to gurus to religious leaders. Over time, I came to realize that nothing is right or wrong, good or bad. Those are concepts invented by humans to help explain our own existance and place sets of controls on our behavior.

    What I learned was that things that happen just are. We are the one's that determine our own reaction. For example, if someone said, "That makes me angry." That would make little sense because nothing can make you angry. You choose anger as a response to a stimuli.

    I'm still working on all this and it is as confusing now as ever but I believe that we are placed on this earth to learn and grow. What we learn and how we grow is up to us and, if we learn nothing and don't grow at all, that is our choice as well.

    ------------------
    Save Our Rockets and Comets
    SaveOurRockets.com
     
  8. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    I grew up in a suffocating family environment in a small town with a crazy doctor for a father (*no exaggeration*) who had a honorable reputation in the community. But not at home. In a crazy household, you tend to dream a lot about the future and what you want to do, as escapism. All I wanted to do was take care of my mom and get the f*ck out of that town.

    Being 7th in a family of 8, I successfully hid myself away from the man. But my mom, sisters and one brother weren't so lucky. Those memories allow me to empathize with others and tend to make me embrace those in need, the hard luck people.

    As for my escapist tendencies, I diligently marched down from Illinois to go to Rice as 5 other siblings did ahead of me. That was a glorious first year experience. Wow. But, then I couldn't go back home and had no money to pay for school if I didn't. I had to escape further. So, I joined the Army. To think Rice gave me experiences that I couldn't get in my small hometown, in the Army I definitely "was not in Kansas anymore."

    Wow,,,what a diverse group of people. I loved it. My religion was set from that experience. It was a combination of thriving to know people from diverse races and empathizing with those hardluck people like my sisters and mom. My basketball skills and cardplaying skills certainly helped me fit in. I have learned a lot from others. Starting with two extremely wise black men I spent hours and hours with in the Army, playing cards and basketball and talking philosophies, and others who they compelled to tell their story...Kurt Brown and Ty Carper. I'll never forget them. In exchange I learned to probe confidently into people's eyes and compell them speak truth to me.

    My religion is truth and wisdom...Everyone has truth and therefore wisdom. When you lie to yourself, you lose your wisdom. Find truth in yourself and from others and share it,

    Thanks rimmy...while I do reflect a lot, I have never really thought this out enough to put my two life experiences together as the source of my "religion". Also, thanks for the timing. My stepfather is on his death bed and my mom is facing being alone again. I can't bare that to happen to her. Your question gave me a chance to reflect on what my priorities are. That is, of course, my mom right now.

    [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited September 21, 2000).]
     
  9. HOOP-T

    HOOP-T Member

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    "What are, things I wish not to discuss on a Houston Rockets BBS?"

    "Right, Hoop-T!" -Alex Trebeque, Jeopardy host

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    There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
     
  10. Gascon

    Gascon Member

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    Lynus,

    I too started with a kind of agnostic base, and then built from that. I didn't know what my God was supposed to be like, but I knew that a higher power existed. That power showed itself to me...in, admittedly, the most comical way.

    I was young...about eleven or twelve I think...and riding in my parents car. The radio was on and I was debating the existence of a higher power. My family didn't go to church and I wasn't sure how I felt about that until I was about ten and I started to formulate my own opinions. I knew that I didn't follow the established Christian doctrine, so that left me trying to decide whether there was any higher power at all. I remember thinking, "If there is a God, I need to be shown a sign. I need some sort of miracle to happen before I can truly believe in a higher power." I remember specifically that I used the word "miracle" in my thoughts because I mouthed the word.

    The next song that came on the radio was, "All I Need Is A Miracle".

    I don't remember who sang the song. It's not important. What is important is the chill that went up and down my spine at that moment and that I knew, for the first time in my life, without any doubt, that there was a higher power...and that higher power was on my side.

    No matter what.

    Jeff, I too believe that "right" and "wrong" are only terms used to describe a condition that is completely subject to individual point of view. There is a destination to be reached, by everyone, after life. As to what the nature of that destination is, I'm still speculating. I like to think that it's a place where dreams come true. That's awfully idealistic, I know. I also feel that I know, deep down inside, what that destination is...I just don't remember. None of us do. I believe that our purpose in being here on this planet is simply that...to be here on this planet. To experience the highs and lows. Especially the lows.

    Without the lows, how can we ever recognize Heaven?

    Gascon

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    Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead.

    No, wait, not me...you.
     
  11. DREAMer

    DREAMer Member

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    ROCKSS,

    If you truly "believe the Bible as it is written", then you cannot believe that "we will be judged by our actions not by our religion", because it says specifically in the Bible that man cannot enter Heaven on deeds alone. So, which is it? This is the hardest part of being a Christian, to me...

    -----------------

    Jeff, Gascon, et al,

    Of course, "right and wrong" is circumstantial, but in every circumstance there is a "right thing to do" and a "wrong thing to do". There are even varying degrees of right and wrong, like something other than what a person did could be less right than another action while being more right than others.

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    I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
    DREAMer's Rocket Page
     
  12. Gascon

    Gascon Member

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    DREAMer,

    according to whom?

    ------------------
    Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead.

    No, wait, not me...you.


    [This message has been edited by Gascon (edited September 20, 2000).]
     
  13. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    DREAMer: Obviously, we won't agree on this because our philosophies are different, but your assertion that there is a right thing and wrong thing to do in every situation again is based on a societal and dogmatic belief system.

    It was once right to own other human beings. It was once wrong to believe that the earth was not the center of the universe. It was once wrong to say the word "pregnant" on television. It was once right to use racial slurs.

    Things change over time and so do our definitions of right and wrong. Nothing in this world lasts. It is ALL impermanent. Because of that, right and wrong are subjective and not fixed. Decisions and the consequences simply are what they are and we are the one's who assign a value to them based on our beliefs and ideals. But, on their own, these acts, decisions, choices, etc. are neither right nor wrong.

    This is not to say I advocate us abandoning rules for anarchy. I am only asserting that value judgements are not based on absolutes but rather a complex set of variables that are always changing. It would be impossible to assign an absolute value to an action because how we feel about that action is constantly changing.

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    Save Our Rockets and Comets
    SaveOurRockets.com
     
  14. steve francis

    steve francis Member

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    gascon,

    According to whoM?

    The grammar police are watching.



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  15. rimbaud

    rimbaud Contributing Member
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    Story time, a fitting excuse for post #500, shortly on the heels (and dwarfed mightily) by the momentous 3K...

    I was raised in the Episcopal Church, but never liked it. I remember extremely hating both church and sunday school. As I got older, we went to church on fewer and fewer occasions (mostly holidays).

    Anyway, when I was young I had no foundation for any beleifs, I just remember not really considereing God/religion.

    As I got older, I started to real more and more (always been important, but I needed to be older to really grasp philosophical/theological argumentation). My intellect was now being satisfied by things I read - I had labels and names to place with my beleifs, I could further develop and explore them.

    I had a friend who was Baptist and church was very important (he was also a drug addict, though) and I would always go to youth and teen gatherings with him. The organizers all basically thought I was Satan, they literally were afraid of me and tried to convert me. Then I beat all of their students in "Bible Trivial Persuit." After that they backed off (although I must admit I have never read much of the Bible, just studies/analysis of it).

    In high school, I became familiar and gained very general knowledge on Taoism. It struck a chord and I decided I liked it, then just moved on, always saying, "I like taoism the best" Obviously, this was dumb.

    Only in the last few years have I studied it more and realized that what I liked was "Philosophical Taoism." Kind of the original Taoism. Learning more has basically pointed out that I have been a philosophical taoist wihthout really realizing it - just my innate convictions.

    So my beleifs (spiritually) follow in line in this way:

    Tao is basically "the way, or path." It is that which flows through everything. I de beleive there are things I cannot explain, not necessarily God, but general power within nature that lies beneath the surface.
    This follows in line with the basic message of, " the tao that can be voiced is not the tao." In other words, we do not understand, so cannot speak of it.

    The "te" in tao is the power, or method for maximizing tao in one's life. The philosophical taoists beleive in "wu wei", effectively meaning efficiency of living - living life with minimal conflict. This speaks well to my always pacifist roots, and my "path of least resistance" objective in dealing with people.

    I try in my life to limit the amount of violence I perpetuate in the world, whether it be directly or indirectly with people, animals, and the world itself.

    Additionally, I have had training in the past in Aikido - which is essential the physical manifestation of one man's spiritual principles (he was illiterate, so it was his way). Though Japanes and based on Shinto, it is nearly identical to taoism (because they are essentially the same religion, just in different countries).

    Anyway, this is all a very internal discipline. There are taoist "teachers" but it is not a religion (there is a religious bracnh, but I am uninterested).

    I ramble. The point is, I needed something that appealed to me intellectually, something most religions simply cannot do. The further research of taoism has given me a resource to attempt to further solidify what I feel has always been within me.

    This is all very basic and does not do any of this justice.

    Happy 500 to me!

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    Talking to a dead hare about art
     
  16. DrNuegebauer

    DrNuegebauer Member

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    I look around at the world and have trouble believing that it exists without being created by something. So there has to be something, let's call it god.

    Now it's difficult to believe in god if you've never seen him - and it's alos important not to limit god to being what WE want him to be, because if we do, he's not god, he's a god who is just a little version of ourselves.

    Looking at various religions, the most outrageous one is Christianity. It claims many things - for example that there was a guy called Jesus who actually WAS god and that he walked on earth and died and was raised from the dead.

    Well after examining all the possibilities, there is NO WAY that anyone can say that Jesus was not who he said he was. There were TONS of eyewitnesses and he was so controversial that all the Jews and Romans were keen to drag him into disrepute. They never did and interestingly enough they never found the body... so I believe in Christianity! And after learning more and more about it I'm convinced that it's 100% true. Funnily enough 1/2 the bible was written before Jesus came to earth and there were all these prophecies about him, and he fulfilled them all - that's kind of scary!!

    Unfortunately most people don't like to believe in Christianity because it tells people that they are wrong in God's sight. Instead of taking offense, we should be overjoyed! Despite the fact that we all do what God doesn't want us to do, it's SO EASY to be forgiven for that. I guess it's up to everyone to make the choice, and it makes me REALLY sad that so many people can't be bothered....


    As for "right" and "wrong" - well who can decide what is right or wrong? And if we leave it up to everyone to decide what is right or wrong for them then it all just becomes a joke! By that philosophy there whould be nobody facing court for ANYTHING!

    Ultimately it's up to God to decide just WHAT is right and just WHAT is wrong (and funnily enough most of our laws are based on laws that God gave his people...)

    As for beliefs, there is ALWAYS a right and wrong thing to do. The right thing to do is to act lovingly towards each other (love the way God loves us) - if we all behaved like that society would be great [​IMG] Unfortunately it's darn hard to put into practice and we're promised that it won't be perfect until we're in heaven. So for now we struggle on - it might be hard, and we might fail, but we try!!

    Religion gives Christianity a bad name! I'm not religious, sure I go to church and all, but Christianity is about being a follower of Christ, NOT going to church and following traditions!

    It doesn't really matter if you believe in God or not, he's still there. Trying to igonre him won't help one bit! He's still there [​IMG]

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  17. Gascon

    Gascon Member

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    I apologize unreservedly, steve.

    I will endeavor to do better in the future. [​IMG]

    In my defense, I think I actually hit the button...just not hard enough. [​IMG]

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    Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead.

    No, wait, not me...you.
     
  18. Gascon

    Gascon Member

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    I feel I should clarify a point. Let me preface it by saying that I am in no way trying to persuade anyone to feel or think the way that I do.

    I believe, much like the Christian faith, that the Bible comes to us directly from God. Of course, I believe that everything comes to us directly from God, but that's mincing words. However, I don't believe that the Bible was intended to be followed by every person to the letter. I believe it was meant to be a guide. The text has had a specific, preordained effect on history. It has had, in my opinion, a profoundly positive effect. I believe that the text was worded in such a way that it might be interpreted in a myriad of different ways. That quality has, as we all know, caused a myriad of problems. These problems, I believe, were intended. Again, I believe that the Bible was meant to have a very specific effect. It has, and still is.

    I do not believe in right and wrong. I know what I choose to consider right and wrong. I make those choices based on the type of man that I want to be. I believe everyone has the right to make those choices without fear of some sort of cosmic "judgement day".

    Again, I believe that we are here to be. That is all.

    I don't know what more I could ask for.

    Again, that's just me.

    ------------------
    Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead.

    No, wait, not me...you.
     
  19. Bobby

    Bobby Member

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    I was raised Catholic - went to Catholic schools all the way through high school. One thing about the penquins, you learned or else!

    My wife (a non-Catholic) went to Catholic Church for a few years (all three of our kids were "sprinkled"). But after a month of sermons at this one church we were attending about the need to raise money for the new organ they wanted to buy - when the Catholic school really needed the money in the worst way - turned me off to the Church. That and confession (not to mention the pre-Cana counseling we went through before getting married - what did this priest know about married life?).

    We drifted through several churches - Methodist, Assembly of God, Baptist- for several years. Got introduced to the Bible, loved it; I totally agree with Dreamer. But what I did discover is that I think organized religion and denominations don't impress the Lord. Too much emphasis on ritual and pagentry, and not enough substance. We now attend a non-denominational church, which we absolutely love and feel comfortable in.

    I believe that God is love, but also that he is a just God. He gave us some very simple rules to follow, with the appropriate "carrot and stick" for complying with them. Amazing grace!

    BTW - I believe that right or wrong are absolute, otherwise we'd be on the same level with the animals.

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    "Who Wants To Be A Rocket?" - and probably a millionaire as well. The off-season will be interesting!
     
  20. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    <img src="http://www.artmovement.com/15x15blank.gif" height="200">
    please back to topic...

    let the posters post. only then can we learn from others, as rimmy asked. If you all debate, surprising posters to this thread won't post.

    no arguments please! only questions. as rimmy asked. Don't open your soul like this then battle. That is not Taoism or Thisism. That debating behavior in this thread is just messed up. Speak to me, and I'll speak to you. Don't quote books.

    Give me your truths, and I will give you mine.<font color="f7f7f7">

    [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited September 21, 2000).]
     

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