1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

JVG's singular focus on defense is his flaw

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Charvo, Nov 20, 2004.

  1. Charvo

    Charvo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    0
    It worked last year with a crew that had way more individual defensive ability than this year's crew. It takes much more effort and energy to play hard defense especially if a player is not good at it which in turn takes away from the contributions on the offensive end. One can argue that the Pistons won with defense. Yes, they did. However, look at their roster. They are loaded with great defensive players and a perennial defensive player of the year. Larry Brown was just emphasizing a strength of the team.

    Can anyone really find a very good defender on the Rockets? However, there are a lot of good to great offensive players on the Rockets.

    Don Nelson said it last year when he said the only way his team could win was to outscore the opponents. He then changed his players which allowed him to have a more hard-nosed defensive gameplan. However, the key is that he changed players.

    Cato is much better than Juwan defensively. Cuttino may be on par with TMac right now defensively. Steve is much better than Ward/Lue when you take a look at his defensive rebounding. The strength of this current roster is not defense. Defense is their weakness. They are fighting their weakness which always takes a lot of the player. Carpenters shouldn't be welding. That's not to say to team should just lay down on defense, but is it that bad to have a top 15 defense rather than a top 5 defense if the offense improves from a lower half team to a upper half team? JVG has demonstrated he is not willing to adapt to a different set of players even though he is responsible for many of those different players being on the team. That's a sign of extreme stubborness. What worked for the Knicks may have worked somewhat for last year's Rockets. It will not work for this year's Rockets.

    Juwan is not Oakley. Mo is not Larry Johnson. Yao is not Ewing. TMac is not Sprewell. Why is JVG trying to mold them into his former team?
     
  2. darkwarrior

    darkwarrior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    1,446
    Likes Received:
    41
    i read like the first paragraph, but maybe because defense wins championships?

    So you want us to go dallas style until we get some great one on one defenders?
     
  3. snowmt01

    snowmt01 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,734
    Likes Received:
    1
    Balance between defense and offense wins championships.
    JVG goes to another extreme in defense, where the fringe
    benefits of defense are trivial but that of offense become
    huge. JVG should study more about economics 101.
     
  4. KeepKenny

    KeepKenny Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2000
    Messages:
    2,721
    Likes Received:
    14
    We could definately get away with this style last year because our D was dominant enough to win even if we didn't score. This year our defensive talent is not up to snuff, so when we play the slow game, and we can't stop people as effectively, the bad teams stay close.
     
  5. pasox2

    pasox2 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,251
    Likes Received:
    47
    Balance.

    The Bulls teams were really good on defense. The showtime Lakers played really good defense. Yes, defense wins championships, but not defense alone. Even the Bad Boy Pistons, Spurs and Rockets had scoring champions that could dominate in a team attack.

    We have the scoring champion, but no team attack.
     
  6. Charvo

    Charvo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think defense wins championships unless you've got the personnel to say otherwise. Pistons have killer individual defensive players. The Rockets have none. Lakers won their championships with a balanced attack of great offense combined with a good defense. Lakers did not go in the game trying to limit the opponents to 80 points or less. Spurs have won with a very good defense and a good offense. However, they have the personnel to do it too. The starting 5 for the Spurs has twice the athleticism of the the Rockets' roster. Ginobli by himself is a better defender than anyone on the Rockets. TD is a very good defensive player.

    The fact is the Rockets are now loaded with guys who can score. As much as the current players have said they are WILLING to buy into a system that will let them win more, they know for a damn fact that they are getting hosed on the offensive end since they have no energy left to even shoot a short hook shot accurately (see Juwan). The career averages of all the Rockets are above the averages that are being displayed this season.

    Doctors shouldn't be trying to fix a car. Do what you are good at.
     
  7. Charvo

    Charvo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree. JVG is disillusioned if he thinks a cast of characters that have stamina and age issues can effectively execute his intense defensive gameplan without suffering greatly on the offensive end. That's also a big reason why the team just collapses down the stretch. By the time the 4th quarter rolls around, the Rockets are so tired, the opposing team with younger legs can just roll right through the Rockets with minimal resistance.
     
  8. newmemo1

    newmemo1 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Messages:
    356
    Likes Received:
    0
    The best plan is to outscore the other team for 85% of the time, but can defend well when it matters.

    to be fair to JVG, it's hard for this team to outscore many..so his approach might give Rockets the best chance.

    I biggest thing I have with JVG is that he takes the fun out of the game, out of the players.
     
  9. glad_ken

    glad_ken Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,320
    Likes Received:
    323
    He takes the fun out of the fans too.... We should be running the triangle offense.
     
  10. SlizardOO

    SlizardOO Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    383
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think the reason why we keep our opponent's score low is because of the limited possesions and not because of our 'stifling' defense.
     
  11. GATER

    GATER Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2000
    Messages:
    8,325
    Likes Received:
    78
    Your logic has a huge flaw. The Rockets are also among the best at opponents FG%. Especially inside the arc.
     
  12. gotoloveit2

    gotoloveit2 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    A great coach is one who "plays" with the strengths of his players, not forcing them to "play" his style of game. JVG is not the one.
     
  13. Charvo

    Charvo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    0
    I sure would like to see how this team plays using a zone defense. Zone defense tries to hide the weaknesses of bad defensive players. Don Nelson said a couple of years ago that Dirk Nowitzki wouldn't be able to survive in the NBA without the zone defense. I saw the Utah's college basketball team who was filled with white guys except for Andre Miller beat the vaunted NC Tarheel team that had Antawn Jamison and Vince Carter. Majerus (the coach of Utah at that time) utilized a zone defense to win the game.

    Since the zone defense was made legal a few years ago, I'm surprised at JVG not wanting to incorporate it into this defenses. The guy is supposedly a defensive genius. Look at the Mavericks who have used it many times to basically shutdown the Rockets. Look at the TWolves. Flip Saunders is an avid user of the zone defense.

    http://www.basketballsbest.com/articles/article18.htm

    THE BASICS OF ZONE DEFENSE FOR THE BEGINNING COACH

    by

    Glenn Wilkes
    Former Head Coach, Stetson University

    Zone defenses differ from man-for-man defenses in that players are assigned a particular area of the court to defend rather than a specific opponent. Foremost attention is focused on the ball and the area of the court to be defended. All defenders mass in assigned areas in and around the free-throw lane and shift as a coordinated unit with each movement of the ball by the offense. This team massing and shifting protects the area close to the basket and makes short shots very difficult to obtain.

    ADVANTAGES OF ZONE DEFENSE

    1. It effectively counters the set-pattern offense involving screening and cutting.
    2. It affords maximum protection in the area close to the basket, making short shots difficult.
    3. Fouls are committed less frequently. A switch to a zone defense when a key player has accumulated several fouls is wise in many cases.
    4. It conserves energy.
    5. Fast Break opportunities are more easily obtained from zone formations.
    6. Most zone defenses strengthen rebounding.
    7. It is very effective on the smaller courts so often used by high school teams.
    8. It minimizes fundamental mistakes by a defensive player.
    9. It increases chances for pass interceptions and encourages "ball hawking".
    10. It is relatively easy both to teach and to learn.
    11. The tall, slow player tends to play zone better then man-for-man.
    12. Some opponents tend to have more difficulty attacking a zone than man-for-man.

    DISADVANTAGES OF ZONE DEFENSE

    1. It is weak against good outside shooting teams.
    2. It is susceptible to fast-breaking teams.
    3. It allows opponents to overload an area by placing two players in the area guarded by one defensive player.
    4. Individual defensive fundamentals tend to be weakened.
    5. It is often ineffective against the deliberate game or stall.
    6. The offense often can move the ball faster than the defense can shift.
    7. The standard zone defense must be abandoned when a team is behind late in the game.
    8. Using the zone makes it more difficult to determine individual defensive responsibility.

    GENERAL ZONE PRINCIPLES

    1. Players must get into defensive position quickly Most offensive plans for defeating the zone include the fast break. Therefore, zone defensive players must hustle downcourt and into proper position immediately after giving up the ball.
    2. Players must maintain good individual defensive stance. The quick shifts necessary to defend rapid ball movement can be executed quicker when proper defensive stance is maintained. In addition, correct stance is necessary to prevent offensive drives.
    3. Players should keep hands up in position to deflect passes.
    4. Talk between defensive players is of major importance in order to handle offensive movement. This is very difficult for a coach to obtain and requires constant reminding of the importance of defensive talk to the defense.
    5. Players must focus their attention on the ball and shift quickly with each movement of the ball. The ball moves, all five players move, and all five players must have their eyes on the ball.
    6. When an offensive player cuts through a zone near the ball, he should be guarded virtually man-for-man until no longer in position to receive a pass. The defensive player guarding him must then release and hustle back to his original position.
    7. All players must be rebound conscious. It is more difficult to block out from the zone, but rebounding can be easier as all five players converge on the defensive basket. In addition, many zone offenses spread players too wide and thus make it very difficult to get an offensive rebound.
     
  14. Charvo

    Charvo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nelson credits the zone for helping the Mavericks thrive despite injuries to Raef LaFrentz, Nick Van Exel and Popeye Jones, a starter and two top reserves. He also said the alignment is behind the improved rebounding averages for offensive stars Dirk Nowitzki, Michael Finley and Steve Nash, and it's helped Shawn Bradley revitalize his game.

    Nelson even said the zone keeps Nash healthy. How? Instead of him chasing one player -- such as Francis -- all over the court and banging into screen after screen, he can let a dribbler go, knowing someone else will pick him up.

    But if the zone, which the NBA adopted last season, is such a cure-all, more teams would be doing it. It's worth noting that Minnesota started 15-5 last season when it was zoning more than anyone else.


    http://texnews.com/1998/2002/texsports/texsports_e_defense1122.html
     
  15. DavidS

    DavidS Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2000
    Messages:
    8,605
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Charvo. You say, "The guy is supposedly (JVG) a defensive genius." So, why do you say, "supposedly?"

    Listen. Ask yourself how the Rockets are able to hold our opponents FG% low WITHOUT using the zone. So, there's no "supposedly" to it. He's doing it. This is because he teaches defensive discipline, the players know their assignments, they close out on shooters, and close in on doubles in the paint. I see some good communication too on the court when switching and recovery is needed.
     
    #15 DavidS, Nov 21, 2004
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2004
  16. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,945
    Likes Received:
    14
    I'm a big proponent of the idea that a coach's biggest strengths eventuallycause his (or her) downfall.

    That's true with anyone. It was true with Rudy, and it's true with JVG. JVG emphasizes defense to the detriment of all else - offensive rebounding, personnel who can play good offensively, and offensive energy. It damanges the rest of the team.

    But this is true with any coach. The key is deciding whether a coach has finally fallen so in love with his strength that he's an overall liability. I don't know that JVG is this far gone yet.
     
  17. Charvo

    Charvo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think he's pretty good, but the lapses in defense in the Knick game especially when rotating to cover Kurt Thomas reflected why JVG is inflexible even in his defense. He was asking his players to use the same exact defense in the 4th quarter that he used in the 1st quarter knowing his players have issues with stamina and age. Knowing his team's physical condition and adapting the defense to it appropriately is part of being a defensive genius. JVG thinks everyone is a car, and he thinks Gatorade is a gasoline. Gatorade is not fuel. Drinking a couple cups of Gatorade in a timeout does not fully refresh a player.

    Players do not cover on defense at nearly the same speed as the 1st quarter. Not adjusting to an obvious physiological fact is what has caused the team to wilt many times in the 4th quarter. JVG is best off with a crew like the Pistons or the Pacers. He wants to coach guys who can fly around on defense for 48 minutes straight. He says with a straight face to the press they didn't have discipline in the 4th quarter.

    As much as Rudy T was not a supreme Xs and Os guy, players would go to war for him. I don't think the Rockets would lift a finger if JVG was getting mugged. Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your troops is essential to any general leading them. If you want them to win a war of attrition, you better make sure they have the physical and mental makeup to do it.
     
  18. DavidS

    DavidS Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2000
    Messages:
    8,605
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, what you are saying is that he should use the Zone, sometimes?

    I think our team defense helps our current roster as much as it can. Guys like Ward, Nachbar, Howard and MoT aren't the most athletic guys. It would be nice to have some long, speedy, guys like Bosh. At least we could mix up the defensive schemes and not suffer. JJ is one of the few than can play 40 minutes and do pretty well no matter what scheme. We're just lucky that he can play both defense and offense. MoT and Howard are mainly offense.

    Also, if this team was to use the zone against the Suns, Kings or Mavs, we'd get killed. Zone is best used for teams that have guards that like to drive, go iso, and not pass very well because they don't have the outside shooters to get points. That's why the zone worked so well against the Francis lead Rox.

    Oh, yeah? You know this as a fact?

    Just because you don't like JVG, you'd really not help him if he was getting mugged? Wow! :eek: I call that really taking your basketball seriously! Are you sure you're not a Piston riot fan?
     
    #18 DavidS, Nov 21, 2004
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2004

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now