Comparing those players NOW to Bari NOW is ridiculous. And I'm not trying to compare them one-for-one - I'm saying that Bari is a glue guy like they were. Gordon and Dort at 22 scored a couple more PPG on worse efficiency than Bari for terrible teams. White wasn't even in league. Bari now is better than they were at 22. Also, I remember Nuggets fans claiming that MPJ acted in a secondary role because "that's all he can do." Put him as the #1 on the Nets, and look what happened - I bet the same would happen for Bari. Argue Bari isn't "elite" at anything all you want - very few guys average 15+/7+ while shooting .37+ from 3. Here's the list of them from last season - only Mobley was under 25 years old.
And you missed my point - these other guys are elite glue guys because they have elite non-primary scorer skills. Jabari does not. 15-7 is not elite regardless of shooting percentage or any combination of contributions. Looking at your list, I see a couple of guys that are much better comparisons than the glue guys you mentioned - John Collins and Nikola Vucevic. Neither of these guys are particularly elite at anything and neither contributes much to winning. The teams that gave them their big contracts moved them as quickly as they could once it became obvious how mediocre they were. Put any of them as the main guy on a team and you'll see the same thing that we've seen with MPJ (who's playing the exact same as he has throughout his career - he just gets more touches now) - a team that can't win.
They had a graphic in game saying Jabari was 11th in the NBA in total plus/minus. Not sure where they got that list from through. Assuming it was true, that above post would be top 4
The individual +/- stat can be deceptive just like any other stat. Sometimes you can watch a player impale himself during a game and it's obvious why his +/- was negative. Other times, for many reasons, it isn't his fault the +/- was negative. Same is true in reverse. Since we are talking about Jabari specifically, when the Rockets get off to great starts, it's rarely because of him. It is usually because of (in order): 1 KD (scoring), 2 Alpi (scoring), 3 Amen (scoring and/or aggression), 4 Tari (aggression and/or scoring). Jabari's is so often a wall flower to start games but his +/- benefits from the recent good starts of the Rockets. Funny thing: KD's mojo years ago at OKC was to lay low to start games and take his time getting into the flow. WB was more than happy to fill the gap taking shots and hogging the ball. However, on this Rockets team, KD comes out guns a blazing (esp w.o. Alpi). Kinda makes me laugh.
Those averages aren't minutes adjusted so Jabari gets a boost vs someone like Tari who plays 11 fewer minutes per game. On a per minute and per possession basis Tari surpasses Jabari. Jabari plays an above average amount minutes compared to the rest of the league. Just averaging those numbers alone isn't an indicator of "eliteness". Someone like Draymond never got those numbers even in his DPOY and all-star years, his career high scoring average was 14. And that was by design, Draymond trying to score more would have been to GS's detriment. Meanwhile, John Collins has averaged those numbers several times in his career already and barely impacts the game. Also, you can be very selective with stats to put a player in rare company:
maynnnn.... folks were cussing bari though the first half last night.... but by the end of the night he shot the 3 at 37.5% to lead the team... he and Tari were the only guys over 25% from distance..
When Jabari sticks to fundamentals, he does fine. Catch-and-shoot 3s are his best asset. Besides 3s, all I'm asking for is high effort on the defensive glass, play fundamental defense and avoid the stupid stuff. On defending perimeter players, perhaps he should imitate KD by focusing more on staying low and extending his arm to reduce the blow-bys.
And you missed my point - what those guys are "elite" at now they were NOT "elite" at 22. I'm not sure why you aren't grasping that. We are obviously talking about projections here. It's so weird to me that people pretend Bari has been stagnant - he's averaging a career high in points, TS%, 3pt%, Ast%, NetRTG, etc. Among 22 year olds, there are very few that possess Bari's combination of length, ability to shoot, and defensive versatility. That is an elite, rare combination, and he will continue to develop the other areas of his game. That is exactly why Bari has such a fantastic NetRTG - because of his versatility. If you don't think that can eventually develop into a unique, "elite" combo, then I'm not sure what to tell you. You don't seem to understand the history of NBA player development.
i agree... he's not KD and he needs to stay in his lane... i get a knot everytime he tries to dribble drive... My thought is that Ime is letting guys try to develop and add to their game, but will provide more clearly defined roles when the post season rolls around - if not before.... i mean look how many people are already accusing him of stifling Reed's progress... lol
I still don't know where on earth this notion came from that Jabari should be good at dribbling and driving. It was never something he could do nor did it look like it's a promising future skill. What we were promised was a guy who could be successful taking a high volume of jumpers from everywhere and there was a possibility he'd develop a turnaround J in the post against smaller players. On defense he was supposed to be a highly switchable PF defender at 6'11 with a decent wingspan and surprising lateral quickness. At what point did people hallucinate that they're owed a dribble drive game and then get furious at their own hallucination not becoming reality?
i certainly dont expect him to dribble and drive - but bless his heart, he keeps trying to... thats the point... he needs to stop that stuff and just play to his strengths....
It's just unrealistic. There are very few 6'10 dudes that can dribble drive in NBA history lol, if Bari could do it, he'd be KD. It's nice that he's working on it and he SHOULD he's 22, it's possible he advances in skill at it, I've seen NBA players gain advance skills like shooting and dribbling through sheer will...but it really shouldn't be expected that he will be able to do it. I'm fine with him trying to do it though because he's trying to work on his game and add it to his game, which I admire. I want young players that want to be great and not just settle for being role players. I want Jabari looking at KD going "Yeah, I can do that!" not just settle for some tall 3 and D big. I want Reed looking at Curry going "Yeah, I can do that!" not just settle for being some scrappy backup PG. They might not reach that level but that's the mentality I want from my young players.
I'll only disagree with: he should do it this much in games. He's so far away from being even mediocre at it. The things you try in a game are the things you're on the cusp of improving. The lone exception to that is tanking teams and even then it's just a bad habit. He shouldn't be doing it since last season. This season we're struggling without a defined PG and the last thing we need is Jabari putting the ball on the floor. We have to be really tight with who handles the ball to keep turnovers reasonable. We NEED more catch and shooting. IMO even practicing this thing has been a disaster. Don't forget he hasn't delivered a single good full shooting season yet. If he's been splitting his training time between dribbling and shooting and he's still bad at dribbling and not get delivered a very good shooting season then it's obvious to me he should have spent all that time in shooting practice. Just tired of it. Best thing would've been to nail the shooting then start practicing dribbling and then audition it when it's ok for the team. It's going to all work out eventually but he's delayed things by being so randomly obsessed with driving.
Sure - it has questionable value as a stat. Small events play a large part [ie sub a player on/off for offensive or defensive purposes at the end of a game. If you are off for defence, you cannot drop the +/-] However, if it is an all-season stat where a particular player leads their team, it can carry some weight [but important not to give it sole weighting]
No one expects Jabari to be some maestro dribbler but there's no one on this board that can honestly say they aren't nervous when Jabari dribbles more than 3x. Also, is that not a devellopemental skill? 4 seasons in, Jabari should have progressed in that department no? If we just accept players for who they are on draft night then development isn't a thing.
I am nervous about a lot of other things too. Amen shooting a 3 Durant trying to dribble when being double-teamed Tari driving to the basket with no plan Reed being pressured with the ball Sengun trying to beat the whole opposing defense dribbling from the 3pt line Adams shooting a hook shot - or any shot Capela shooting free throw Tate being on the floor playing The list goes on and on...
Development can be more about building on a player's strengths rather than eliminating weaknesses. For instance, Amen hasn't made much progress on his long range shooting but does that outweigh what else he brings to the table? He does so many at a very high level, but that fundamental weakness remains. Do you accept a draft night weakness from Amen but not Jabari? Jabari's having a career year in scoring, 3pt %, assists, and efficiency. He's still only 22 years old, younger than Amen in fact, and is outplaying his extension so far IMO. Can we just accept the progress?
Just going off of the eyeball test. I think Smith has been much better this year. I know how the BBS looks at age so I know he is essentially over the hill but just a reminder he turns 23 in May. he will improve at his abilities to dribble and pass. How much? Who knows… considering his length, I still want him experimenting with trying to get to the basket. Sometimes when he’s able to do it in a straight line it actually doesn’t look that bad. I also would love to see about 10 minutes a game with him at center.
