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Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    Dude what are talking about? Even Little Marco admitted that the peace plan Trump gave to Zelensky was straight from Russia. Why would Russia not agree to its own wish list proposal?

    And most importantly, why would anyone believe that Russia and the US would hold onto its end of the bargain, and why would they not just assume that after 10 years when the deal ends, that all bets are off??

    Maybe Zelensky and members of the parliament want to just end the war, but you don’t understand or have an ounce of empathy of the Ukrainian citizen perspective. If Zelensky was to accept this deal there would be a massive backlash amongst his people and he’d likely have to evade the country.

    Maybe not right away but this deal is terrible for the people of Ukraine. It’s a “trust me bro” soft handshake agreement that has a very short lifespan, and gives us a sizable chunk of the country forever very much officially.

    That being said yes Ukraine should be at the table willing to cut a deal, but the security guarantees need to be on a whole other plain of existence, and they especially cannot kneecap their military. That would be stupid and just guarantees that Russia will be right back in a few months to take more and more and more. This is a guarantee of being a vassal state with no self determination or independence. It’s insane.

    I get your perspective and romantic view of the Soviet era you still think exists, but dude… do your homework, have an ounce of empathy, have an ounce of perspective, and stop removing all agency from Vladimir Putin as you always do. He NEVER has any agency in these posts of yours like he’s just a great white shark eating machine who has no ability to decipher right and wrong. Above all this is the most frustrating thing about your pro Soviet propaganda. Not once have I ever seen an ounce of agency for Russia. It’s disgusting.
     
    ROCKSS and astros123 like this.
  2. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    To accept this apparent Russia-wish-list deal, Ukraine would have to trust Russia to leave them alone, just as they did when they surrendered their nuclear weapons in exchange for that very promise. There is no security guarantee of the kind they're seeking, not in this deal nor a in any past deals. You don't need media reports to understand why they've been demanding security guarantees -- history already taught them that lesson.
     
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  3. ROXTXIA

    ROXTXIA Member

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    Ah, yes. Because appeasement always works.

    Proof once again that Bernie Bros and MAGA, the "Horseshoe Theory". (Wikipedia)....asserts that advocates of the far-left and the far-right, rather than being at opposite and opposing ends of a linear continuum of the political spectrum, closely resemble each other, analogous to the way that the opposite ends of a horseshoe are close together

    "Russia might not accept"? IT'S THEIR "PEACE" PLAN. Hell, Lil Marco pretty much admitted it (then tried to backtrack). Russia gives up nothing and keeps all their gains. Give Putin what he wants and then he'll go after the rest of Ukraine. After that? Poland. And so on.

    Hell, Israel is still bombing Gaza. That "peace plan" simply got the media to move on, pay attention elsewhere. Of course they know better but the Israeli lobby wins again. But there's Trumpolini out there, wanting his Peace Prize.
     
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  4. ROCKSS

    ROCKSS Member
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    What happened to the additional sanctions tramp was going to level at Russia after the last peace talk fiasco, the way tramp bends the knee to putin leads me to believe putin has something on the orange man..........................or is he just that big of a p***y?

    [​IMG]
     
  5. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy

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  6. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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  7. glynch

    glynch Member

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    A rare time I can largely agree with the neo-con friendly Sam Fisher on a w
    Good post and worth reading for those who believe this was just written by the Russians.
     
  8. glynch

    glynch Member

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    It might make you uncomfortable to get outside the mainstream bi-partisan consensus i.e NYT, CNN, MSNBC, etc.; but just in case try googling folks like Jeffrey Sachs, John Meeersheimer, on the liberal/left who can are now essetially banned from the mainstream. You can watch their talks on youtube. You could also try some of the guests on Judge Napolitano a libertarian who tends to have a variety of guests and focuses only on foreign affairs and civil liberties. I of course would disagree with his economic views.

    Ever wonder why in the mainstream press we are always "winning" our supported wars until almost all of the sudden the results turn into a mess and eventually folks claim they never supported them wholeheartedly?
     
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  9. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    I like you and respect you Glynch but the irony here is that you are doing what you are accusing other of in regurgitating bias anti-American propaganda.

    I think it’s a good idea as well to be careful about being condescending about these things. Most of us understand and appreciate the positives and the negatives of American global influence, the military industrial complex, and the American media. Many of us are capable of not being blind sheep and can parse complex ideas.

    You I believe you are just outright wrong about America (Trump or Biden or whomever is in charge) not supporting and helping Ukraine defeat Russia, and I think you are blinded by this romanticized view of the Soviet Union and it dilutes your ability to see clearly that Russia being successful here in invading a sovereign country that was attempting to become a member of the EU and part of the modern global community, as something that cannot stand. It creates unnecessary volatility in Europe, and sets precedent that anyone can just invade whoever they want.

    Also Russia is only doing this because of the failures of the Putin regime to fully realize the opportunity they have in Russia. Nobody else except maybe the US has the upper hand in geography, man power, brain power, and natural resources to be successful…. Yet Putin is so incompetent economically that the only way he can grow his economy and be relevant is to rely on taking from his Neignbor like a school yard bully. It’s fcking pathetic.

    All that being said, of course the US has a checkered past with Iraq, and Vietnam, etc. That does NOT mean that past wrongs means you can do nothing right.
     
  10. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Thanks for your reply. In replying to your last few posts in. general. I do have empathy for the Urainian people. This is different from having empathy for Zelenski and the crowd around him who will likely do very well in exile with their millions they have skimmed off with corruption. Likewise I will have sympathy for any Americans who might die in Trump and Rubios plans to invade or destabilize Venezuela or other useless wars e.g trying to prevent Taiwan from becomg part of China again.
    You are correct Zelenski will have to flee the country. Polls show that the majority of Ukrainian no longer support the war.

    I have been a democratic socialist for over 40 years.I do not have a romanticized view of Soviet Communism, the Gulags, etc., but that is over and the US has been unwilling to accept that, but was insistent on treating Russia as an enemy. I would like Russia to be more democratic, but it is much more democratic than many of the dictators that we consider allies. The US is not always wrong, but our bi-partisan consensus for wars and regime change "Color Revolutions" (often only once the dictators, previous friends, have started to cross us occasionally. The hypocrisy of it all s astunding.

    You are also correct that Russia is the one country in the world probably that requires no resources from any country to have a modern economy. With only 150 million population and their enormous 9 million? square miles they are underpopulated and really do not need any resources Ukraine may have.

    I do think that you misunderstand how Russia could be threatened by NATO expanding and putting nuclear weapon in a large military base in Crimea. There was no need to have a war primarily to expand NATO into Ukraine. Of course Ukraine can feel threatened also. Interestingly Meersheimer the liberal, but proponent of the realist school of foreign relations was very much alone arguing that the newly independent Ukraine should have kept the old Soviet nuclear weapons.
     
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  11. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    I'm convinced that Trump needed to clear the table so he could concentrate on his regime change project/money grift in Venezuela.

    IMO, supporting this "peace" = supporting military intervention and regime change in Venezuela. I think MAGA's fine with that. Not sure about everybody else.

    The next time Trump supports the underdog, or the weak, or the downtrodden will be the first. I'm about done with humanity as a group. Everybody just wants to get theirs.
     
    #19331 Ottomaton, Nov 25, 2025 at 12:49 PM
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2025 at 1:08 PM
  12. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    It is a negotiated surrender, not a peace plan. Many elements of this plan just leaves landmines for future leaders to seek a more permanent solution for. It looks to me to have the germ of new conflict baked in, so I can't really tolerate calling it a peace plan.

    I wish Europe would step up and take control of the negotiations and freeze the US out. Aside from Ukraine itself, the EU has the most exposure here and with some commitment they could provide some actual security guarantee. I can understand they feel flatfooted because they are not prepared for leading a war themselves. But France and Germany seem to be headed in that direction.
     
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